“When women claim to be seeking kindness, respect, a sense of humor, etc., they mean at most that they would like to find these qualities in the men who are already within their erotic field of view. When a man asks what women are looking for, he is trying to find out how he can get into that field of view. Women do not normally say, either because they do not know themselves or because it embarrasses them to speak about it. The advice they do give harms a lot of lonely men who mistakenly concentrate their mating effort on showing kindness and courtesy to ungrateful brats rather than working to gain the things females actually respond to.”
– ‘The feminine sexual counter-revolution and its limitations’, F. Roger Devlin
“Sexual desire is preoccupied with youth, and the progressive influx of ever-younger girls onto the field of seduction was simply a return to the norm; a restoration of the true nature of desire, comparable to the return of stock prices to their true value after a run on the exchange. Nonetheless, women who turned twenty in the late sixties found themselves in a difficult position when they hit forty. Most of them were divorced and could no longer count on the conjugal bond — whether warm or abject — whose decline they had served to hasten. As members of a generation who — more than any before — had proclaimed the superioirity of youth over age, they could hardly claim to be surprised when they, in turn, were despised by succeeding generations. As their flesh began to age, the cult of the body, which they had done so much to promote, simply filled them with an intensifying disgust with their own bodies — a disgust they could see mirrored in the gaze of others.”
– The Elementary Particles, Michel Houllebecq
Beautiful.
I don’t know whether you’ve mentioned Houellebecq here before, but one thing I enjoy about your writings is that they resemble very much the sorts of things he writes.
Devlin’s passage is important. Women aren’t going to tell a man that he has to be more handsome, more wealthy, or more masculine; that runs counter to everything women have been preaching the last 40 years about “not judging a book by its cover”. For the sake of men’s feelings they will concentrate on telling them the things they *can* change such as attitude, manners, and chivalry. But as devlin put it so well, they fail to tell the men that they must meet those first order conditions before the second order comes into the picture.
Glad to see you are finally reading Houellebecq.
As for the age thing, I just went out this week with a 21 year old 9. Tall. Very blonde. Polish ancestry. A little junk in trunk, which I like. But, to my surprise, the best part was just how incredible 21 year old skin feels, especially when girls aren’t all sweaty and gross like they usually are in bars and clubs. Just putting my hand on her upper arm was enough to give me shivers.
HouEllebecq’s great. I remember in one of his books the protagonist, a middle-aged man, would hang out around schools to ogle at early teen girls, thinking how ridiculous it was that those girls all had terrible hang-ups about their looks, when he himself would gladly fuck any one them. (I’m not into girls that young, but I love how casually Houellebecq writes about such desires.) Anyway, I wonder if, when a man gets older, youth progressively becomes synonymous with attractiveness for him. I know a guy who married a girl 30 years his junior, a real butterface, and I’ve sometimes heard older guys gush over plain-looking young things. Any comments from older guys?
Truly, you are a hero of our time.
J asked:
Anyway, I wonder if, when a man gets older, youth progressively becomes synonymous with attractiveness for him.
There is something very powerful about the sexuality of younger women (late teens/early twenties). It can hit you like a freight train. I do not know if it is pheromones or estrogen but it can be powerful.
As Thursday said, there is something about the look and feel of young skin. So yes, as a man gets older the allure of youth itself can be powerful.
I do not have the game, energy or patience (they can be incredibly silly, shallow, and flaky) for very young women but I do understand the appeal.
For men, as you become older, youth does tend to become even more important than facial structure. I once kissed a quite attractive woman in her 40s, one who had kept in shape and who you could tell must have been an absolute stunner in her 20s. It was one of the grossest things I have ever done. I swear that, unless it’s my wife that I’ve been married to for 15, 20 years, I’ll never do that again in my life.
I do not have the game, energy or patience (they can be incredibly silly, shallow, and flaky) for very young women but I do understand the appeal.
Teens are completely crazy. Many girls in their early 20s though have started to mature nicely.
Younger girls are really random though. Even if they like you, they often don’t know what to do with their feelings, so they will sometimes reject you out of fear or for some completely arbitrary reason. So, even more than with women in general, you can’t take rejection personally.
When they do latch onto you though, they will often throw their whole heart into it.
Truth, both of them, though I’m not so sure about the cultlike elevation of youth here. Men who point to a rapidly ticking biological clock have an obvious vested interested in getting those women to lower their standards. Besides, there are plenty of ugly young women.
Yes, it’s interesting how people are screwed in the sexual free market.
Men get screwed because they are priced out of it when it matters, when lifetime bonds can be formed, when they can have relationships that are actually meaningful. Because few men can become taller, more handsome, more wealthy, and more powerful. [Game can help on the margins, but only for a few men, of great discipline.]
Women get screwed over, thinking they will be young and beautiful forever, that plastic surgery, cultural celebration by a feminized culture of cougars, and the beauty industry (worldwide more revenue than the arms industry) will stave off age.
You watch TV, commercial after commercial promises women products that will make them young forever.
As a result, men, an ever increasing amount of them, become opted-out Galts, with a few PUA on the side. Women are pumped-dumped and then irrelevant to most men, sort of like Gloria Swanson in Sunset Boulevard. Once stars, now forgotten.
What’s a girl to do when she discovers she’s about to go on a pseudo-blind date with a guy who’s a devout Roissy reader? My Internet stalkage has led me back here; I haven’t read in weeks. Quite the following you’ve got.
Thanks for making me nervous.
i hope you’re writing a book and putting this all down in coherent and comprehensive manner for future generations
Have you seen this? It’s a refreshingly honest letter from a hot girl to her nice guy friend in the Onion:
http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/but_if_we_started_dating_it?utm_source=c-section
Choice quote: “I really like you. I do. You’re so nice, and sweet, and you listen to all my problems and respond with the appropriate compliments. But, well, I don’t really see a relationship in our future. It would be terrible if we let sex destroy this great friendship we have where I get everything I want and you get nothing you want. Don’t you think?”
Sweet sweet Devlin.
Thursday –
Indeed it is all about the skin – and the quality of visceral fat that exists underneath it. A fine veneer of subcutaneous fat over a thin frame is what makes women beautiful.
This quality is unmatched in young women, and something that older women cannot replicate or restore, no matter how hard they try. Either the skin loosens, letting the fat become formless and concentrated, or the fat is lost and masculinization takes place. Its a cruel, irreversible decline after about 25. The rare exceptions can retain shape after, but we’re interested in the rules rather than exceptions.
As for kissing older women, you’re exactly right. I once kissed a similarly attractive woman in her late 30s and it was painful, hollow, and unpleasant. The coarseness that can’t be detected visually and the diminishment of the supple, pliable flesh on the lips and cheeks is unbearable. More often then not, if the kissing isn’t hot, the sex won’t be either. Thus, her body, while visually hot just didn’t have the elastic responsiveness it must’ve had in her youth. Its amazing how such subtle changes can have massive impacts on attraction.
It almost makes me feel bad for women that this is the ultimately losing game they’re cursed to play. Almost.
What’s a girl to do when she discovers she’s about to go on a pseudo-blind date with a guy who’s a devout Roissy reader?
this is an important point. I have so far avoided telling any girl I dated in the last year (since I found this blog) about Roissy. but I not convinced that it would be bad thing
Nice post on your dad suburban really cool.
You should be fine just make sure you give it up within the first 5 minutes then you can move on to building some rapore.
J:
Anyway, I wonder if, when a man gets older, youth progressively becomes synonymous with attractiveness for him.
yes. the reason is this:
age is as vital to a woman’s beauty as is the arrangement of the bones and flesh of her face. a stunning 40 year old will not be able to compete with a stunning 20 year old. this is why heidi klum, while she’s a 10 adjusted for her age, has depreciated to an 8 overall, with tumbles to 7 and 6 ratings just a few short years away. there are many less facially attractive early 20s women who are more enticing than heidi simply because heidi has accumulated the wear and tear of 15 extra years.
as men get older, their appreciation for the beauty inherent in female youth rises, because they now have a wider pool of women encompassing more age brackets and greater attractiveness differences from which to draw a comparison. a young man who dates college co-eds exclusively will be pickier about a woman’s facial beauty than an older man who by circumstance and gradually shrinking options dates the spectrum of 25 – 40 year olds. those men who have peered dolefuly into the abyss of age-related degradation in a woman’s looks find a newfound appreciation for female youth in and of itself.
the above partly explains why teen girls are so much more neurotic about their minor facial flaws (ugh, my earlobes are too small!) despite there being so many older men who in their ecstactic joy at bedding younger women hardly notice such flaws.
thursday:
I once kissed a quite attractive woman in her 40s, one who had kept in shape and who you could tell must have been an absolute stunner in her 20s. It was one of the grossest things I have ever done. I swear that, unless it’s my wife that I’ve been married to for 15, 20 years, I’ll never do that again in my life.
brutal.
sweet:
What’s a girl to do when she discovers she’s about to go on a pseudo-blind date with a guy who’s a devout Roissy reader?
count your blessings. you’ve got a keeper. he will know how to please you.
“What’s a girl to do when she discovers she’s about to go on a pseudo-blind date with a guy who’s a devout Roissy reader?”
Main advice: Break the date (dont give a reason or an excuse)
If you do decide to go ahead with it, remember:
Don’t believe a word he says (including ‘hello’ ‘the’ and ‘and’).
Remember he’s lying to you to get into your pants. He’s not interesting or exciting, he’s playing a game.
If you find yourself attracted to him it’s because his bullshit is working. Let yourself be carried away for the moment but don’t fool yourself into thinking you’ll ever mean anything more to him than as a convenient orifice for his jizzbombs.
If he sleeps with you, he’ll despise you forever and if he doesn’t he’ll forget you and write you off (part and parcel of the PUA routine is contempt for women for being so easy to fool and manipulate or contempt for women resisting manipulation, like nuclear war in the old movie, the only way to not lose is to not play).
“To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” – George Orwell
Excellent…
cliffette:
Don’t believe a word he says (including ‘hello’ ‘the’ and ‘and’).
you write like an aggrieved woman.
Cliff hurt Roissy. You can tell because Roissy compares Cliff to a woman. Poor Roissy got used like the worthless little cunt he is.
As for Suburban, she already accomplished what she wanted with her post. Now her date knows that she knows he reads Roissy. He can’t be too formulaic, now. The poor fucker may even have to be genuine.
i read this blog and agree with a good amount of what Roissy and others say on the usual variety of topics. it validates a lot of what Ive already observed or have come to believe in my sexual career. however at no point in my dealings with women do I ever feel disengenuious. if anything this blog preaches being more truthful, genuine and embracing of reality.
beta:
You can tell because Roissy compares Cliff to a woman.
if the mangina fits…
Poor Roissy got used like the worthless little cunt he is.
your spastic overreaction speaks volumes.
The poor fucker may even have to be genuine.
who is more genuine: the guy who understands that women love to be seduced and aims to give his dates the pleasure of a proper seducing, or the guy who thinks a woman’s needs are beneath him and drones on self-satisfied in haughty sanctimony that his date will come to appreciate the real him?
Roissy,
Way to own me like that. I’m still squirming like a teen girl creaming my panties from your exhilarating attention. Will you be my Edward Cullen?
[editor: my gay fans are legion.]
The best Viagra in the world is a younger woman.
I was reminded of this again last night with a 35 year old. I’ve wanted to fuck her for a couple of years now and I AM attracted to her exotic looks, but goddamn….I finally got the chance and I had to pull out everything in my arsenal to keep my soldier standing at attention.
That shit was tiiiiiight too. Supposedly hadn’t had sex in 3 years.
Damn, I need to get back into some of that 22 yr old pussy.
I agree with much of what has been said about young women. I think this is a big reason why men avoid working in secondary education. It’s hard to be awash in a sea of nubile girls, dressed like tramps, and not be constantly sporting a sequoia. Since even the slightest hint of attraction can be career-ending, it puts male teachers in an untenable position.
Anyway, the obvious solution to this problem is for a proportion of 15 year old women to be conscripted into a 5-year Sexual Service Corps to provide pleasure for the male population. That’s what they do in Eastern countries, and I’ve heard very positive things.
Internet Thugs. I got your back Roissy.
Suburban Sweetheart,
Don’t listen to a word from Cliff. She’d say the same about any guy.
Concerning your answer: Who cares! Act as you would, it’s dumb to judge a person only based on what he reads, don’t you think?
Well… there are some exceptions… but Roissy ain’t one of them.
Just be cool and act as you will naturally do… if you like him, enjoy. If you don’t like him, send him away. If you’re sure… enjoy anyway…
Just don’t be a bitch. Respect yourself. And enjoy…
default userThere is something very powerful about the sexuality of younger women (late teens/early twenties). It can hit you like a freight train. I do not know if it is pheromones or estrogen but it can be powerful
*looks serious*
default, how old are you?
so this explains those 40 something men giving me the eye. Until I started reading this blog, I would become super creaped out when I caught an older man checking me out.
*shrugs shoulders*
It just seems wrong some how. Even if the older man is one who by the grace of God is still attractive (John Ensign-but a freak) there is something weird about dating a man who is old enough to be your father.
BTW, a few years older isn’t the problem it’s when they are old enough to be your father that younger women become creaped out. That’s not to say that older men don’t beat younger men in some areas because of course they do.
Speaking of older men dating younger women, Billy Joel is getting a divorce.
count your blessings. you’ve got a keeper. he will know how to please you.
*But you don’t like to lick
@chic noir
i find older men very handsome. are you really creeped out, or just afraid? ie. george clooney, pierce brosnan, the suave professor, the director of the organization…. etc.
Mike, which Eastern Countries?? You pervert…
However, I have to grant you this:
“I think this is a big reason why men avoid working in secondary education. It’s hard to be awash in a sea of nubile girls, dressed like tramps, and not be constantly sporting a sequoia.”
And the boys who aren’t getting any at High School but are not that Beta to conform to that?
Those are the biggest victims of the machinations of the ones that compose “the sea of nubile girls, acting like angels or devils (“)
I’m one of those victims. This last two years, I barely touched a book relative to what we learn at High School. I also didn’t do 75% of what was asked.
Do never put something feminine at the top of a pedestal.
P.S. – Interestingly enough, an altar is a kind of pedestal.
I think this is a big reason why men avoid working in secondary education. It’s hard to be awash in a sea of nubile girls, dressed like tramps, and not be constantly sporting a sequoia.
The solution is to date 8+ women in their early to mid twenties.
@dreamer- I like the maturity, leadership ability, and resources that older men have but I don’t like the change off life process that men(and women) go through as they enter middle age.
I also don’t like the idea of some 45 year old stud who hoed it up in his youth(Warren Betty) who comes to the conclusion that it’s time to get married since he will need someone to change his diapers in a few years. I guess those old hoes start coming to their senses when 20 year olds call them “sir”. A 40 something man who has never been married because he was working to build an empire, didn’t have time for a wife, ill, wasn’t sure about marriage etc is in a different category(they get respect). He is not equal to the over the hill, gray pubbed, once upon a time lothario.
Clooney is the male version of Jennifer Anniston as far as I am concerned. People just cosigning other people calling him hot, even Brad Pitt is looking not so good these days. I’ve seem beter looking 40 something white men walking down the street. Robb Loewe is very handsome and 40 something. Pierce Brosnan is handsome but the 25-30 something Brosnan was better looking( less hardened).
No sane man ever believes what a woman says or cares about what she wants.
It’s about fucking time you reference The Elementary Particles.
Keep up the good work, Roissy. I really enjoy reading your blog.
The problem is that later Houellebecque tends to resolve the tensions through a farrago of expatriation, Thai hookers, and death. Death, either through Islamist terror attack or simply “letting oneself go” in the fornication-hell of Pattaya, is the ultimate cure for his male characters’ sexual anomie. And no, not even the guy who Pattayas himself out of existence goes out with the big, goofy smile you’d expect.
This is a man’s perspective, so take it with a grain of salt.
However, that said, Clooney seemed to me to be at his best looking in his late 30s. He’s still better looking than 99% of men out there, but he’s showing some real wear and tear now.
Pierce Brosnan and his, once very beautiful, wife are both getting really fat.
Three biggest things for looking good enough to keep dating younger women when you are older.
1. Stay in shape. It’s huuuuuuuge. That 23 year old hunny you want, doesn’t want to present some beer bellied guy to her friends.
2. Keep up your grooming. 25 year olds can get away with shaggy hair and scraggly beards. You can’t.
3. Dress stylishly. In clothes that fit.
Reminds me of Achille’s lines to Briseis (the slave girl he captured) in the movie Troy:
“Let me tell you a secret, something they don’t teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we’re mortal, because any moment may be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we’re doomed.
You will never be more lovely than you are now. We will never be here again.”
She was probably in her late teens early 20′s when he said this to her…
Chic Noir,
While I get your sense of indignation, I don’t understand why you have such an axe to grind against Beatty. Him and Clooney are doing nothing more than Cary Grant himself did in his day, and truth be told, either Men would be able to pull significantly more Women, up and down the chain, than say, Steve Jobs, who in many ways, fits your latter description. The simple truth of the matter is, while Jobs does indeed have busines success and wealth, he doesn’t incite lust in a Woman like Beatty and Clonney and Grant do/did. That’s the critical difference, and why a Jobs will always lose out to a Beatty any day of the week.
I’m just sayin.
O
I don’t know thursday I weigh 240 lbs and let my teeth go just to prove a point. I can still pull bitches.
Of course I can prove another point and have them all capped movie star style and get in shape in about 12 months. Just for the irony.
@ Suburban Sweetheart
“What’s a girl to do when she discovers she’s about to go on a pseudo-blind date with a guy who’s a devout Roissy reader?”
Shouldn’t be too bad, especially if you yourself also read Roissy on the (semi)regular… It’ll give you two something to talk about over…wherever he takes you, because a devout Roissy reader would never take you to dinner, hehe. A lot of guys will think it’s pretty cool that you, as a girl, have taken the time to read the “boy side” of the dating scene, instead of just the “girl side” (e.g. COSMO!!!!). Don’t sweat.
True story: my boyfriend reads, and comments on (rather regularly), Roissy.
mu-The simple truth of the matter is, while Jobs does indeed have busines success and wealth, he doesn’t incite lust in a Woman like Beatty and Clonney and Grant do/did
Beatty would certainly be a “did”. Beatty looks like my grandpa now. If either of the two were without fame, they would have to work much harder than a Robb Loewe or Brosnan.
the thing that got women lining up for Beatty were the good reviews he received from his former paramours. Like you always say, ladies love appreciate and respect a good woodsman
either Men would be able to pull significantly more Women, up and down the chain, than say, Steve Jobs, who in many ways, fits your latter description.
Very true and I guess you can add Bill Gates to the list. Something tells me that Jobs and Gates aren’t overly concerned with running after women because that’s not their personality and sexual drive. On the otherhand, gates and jobs can pull top tier women because of their wealth(we call it tricking).
Asparagus is on the opposite end of the spectrum from Gates and Jobs and it’s the reason he seems frustrated.
Quick question MU( or any other man)
Do you think that having a high sex drive is a hindrance for a man? What would be the female version of such a hindrance?
Do you think that having a high sex drive is a hindrance for a man?
Holy shit, you can rank men´s alphaness by the reaction of each one when a hot woman passes by.
“”””””””””””””Do you think that having a high sex drive is a hindrance for a man? “”””””””””””””””””
Just talking with 2 female coworkers. One was talking about her experience talking with some other guys and how the guy was hinting at them having sex. She made him say what he wanted in front of his boss that had come out. Then it turned to her saying that guys that haven’t had it in 8 months are no good. They only last 30 seconds.
I am like I didn’t stop bleeding until the 6th day. Both there cheeks where red. He He He
Not a hindrence. Plus can get away with sex harassment. Although they started the sex talk lol
Chick blows me in hotel room. I go to wash off. Chick is trying to convince my wife to let her blow me a second time. While I am not there. Because the chick fell in love with my dick. Wife lets her. Pull a threesome. Wife gets off 3 times from my hand.
Good stuff.
Oh yea while kissing I was just kidding on last thread. Man I had a good vacation. Anyway posting way too much. Hopefully will be forgiven. Goes into monklike non posting trance for a minute he he he
chic noir burbled:
…so this explains those 40 something men giving me the eye.
they’re not checking you out – they’re just looking for someone to clean their house.
^^^fail flammer
True story: my boyfriend reads, and comments on (rather regularly), Roissy.
So, inquiring minds want to know: what’s The Obsidian really like irl?
he doesn’t incite lust in a Woman like Beatty and Clonney and Grant do/did.
You think? HA!
That’s the critical difference, and why a Jobs will always lose out to a Beatty any day of the week.
Oh, I’d totally take Jobs over Beatty. Beatty has always seemed…skeevy, somehow, to me. Sleazy as opposed to sexy. Although in fairness, Jobs is alleged to be a massive control freak bossypants, which tends to be NFAA. Clooney: haven’t seen him in anything lately, but my image of him is that he has (has?) Grant potential but is on the Beatty track. Pitt: handsome like a statue (less so now than when he was younger), and with about as much sex appeal. Grant: drop dead aces in every possible category.
But you absolutely can’t go by me.
Suburban Sweetheart enquired:
What’s a girl to do when she discovers she’s about to go on a pseudo-blind date with a guy who’s a devout Roissy reader?
1. Follow instructions to the letter
2. buy new sheets
@ Firepower
Apparently…not black.
I have never understood why men care about what women “think”. The reality is that no women can be trusted, so anything they say is worthless.
Let’s say you are an 80 year old getting a blowjob from a 20 year old escort. Do you really care about what she thinks about you? Just enjoy the senstations, don’t care about her feelings or thoughts. Who knows, with some luck she might get run over by a car the next day.
@Lucifer
everything in life is done for women. Like Michael Douglas in “wall street”: “first you get the money, then you get the power, and finally you get the women which were the reason for everything all along”
the ability to make a women love you, and that REQUIRES having some clue about her feelings or thoughts is by far the greatest pleasure in life
Thursday,
I made out with a mid-30s cougar last week. I agree – disgusting.
gig,
Why do you require a woman to love you, given that she never loves YOU. Why do you require external validation about your worth as a human being?
You do not require the chicken that lays eggs for your omlette to love you. Just look at women as utilities, not unlike how they look at YOU.
An escort with a good attitude can blow you with the same passion as the “love of your life”.
Lucifer
I have never understood why men care about what women “think”. The reality is that no women can be trusted, so anything they say is worthless.
hey Luc – I’ve always been your Advocate, so it’s hella sweet to see you following me for a change.
btw, thanks for that coked out, guilt-ridden black supermodel last night. props
Firepower,
I lurk a lot, but rarely post here. I always had these beliefs about women. Once you see the matrix, you cannot unsee it.
Regaurding the first quote:
Women will not say what they actually want/need a man to do to get INTO their erotic vision because they don’t want to have to tell a man how to behave. I mean is there anything more beta than a woman telling her man how to act so that she can just bear to be around him? No! This is for two reasons: 1. Women are very “dream” and “fate” oriented. If a woman really told a man how to act in order to increase (or in this case, CREATE) attraction – then it wouldn’t seem natural, it would seem forced and then they would be unable to enjoy themselves. This is why women test for congruency with behaviors, language and body language – so that phonies don’t slip through the cracks and obtain attraction. Women like giving themselves to the select few naturals, or men who have taken the time to learn about game through time, effort and hard work. These are the real winners.
This above reminds me of the twilight zone episode where eddie valentine gets shot and goes to “the other place.” Where he gets to have anything he wants. He’s a gambler, so he always wins. When he asks if he can lose, they ask when he wants it done. He says, “this takes all the fun out of it, it wouldn’t be the same, it would be pre-meditated. Women compete over the best men. The best men don’t need to be told how to act to gain attraction. If women started telling men what we know, that they need to change everything and do illogical things to gain attraction, then it wouldn’t be fun anymore and the attraction wouldn’t be the same, it would be pre-meditated.
2. The second reason is that women are afraid that if the “secrets” get out, then they will lose all their power. They will have less options themselves as men would be able to attract more beautiful women then her (all women, no matter how hot she is, fear that their man will leave her for somebody better looking). Women have their pick of the litter (within their 1-10 attraction rating phase at least). Do you think that a woman who is a solid 7 will still be able to attract a man who rates 7 or 8 if that man has options to now go after 8s, 9s and 10s depending on his game? No! So women will try to keep us down and this information a secret until it no longer works and they move onto different things, but this won’t be happening anytime soon.
A reading from John Crowe Ransom:
Blue Girls
Twirling your blue skirts, traveling the sward
Under the towers of your seminary,
Go listen to your teachers old and contrary
Without believing a word.
Tie the white fillets then about your hair
And think no more of what will come to pass
Than bluebirds that go walking on the grass
And chattering on the air.
Practice your beauty, blue girls, before it fail;
And I will cry with my loud lips and publish
Beauty which all our power shall never establish,
It is so frail.
For I could tell you a story which is true;
I know a lady with a terrible tongue,
Blear eyes fallen from blue,
All her perfections tarnished–yet it is not long
Since she was lovelier than any of you.
Lucifer
Firepower,
I lurk a lot, but rarely post here. I always had these beliefs about women. Once you see the matrix, you cannot unsee it.
love that sense of humor.
The Matrix is my favorite comedy too.
Michel Houllebecq:
Most of them were divorced and could no longer count on the conjugal bond — whether warm or abject — whose decline they had served to hasten.
fucking brilliant. Yet, sad because it was totally unnecessary – then carried to ridiculous extremes.
Women will never admit to this. Their social vanity at mothering a debacle won’t allow it.
Not that they study or engage in intellectual thought anyway.
@jackson, thursday
mid-30s is considered cougar / old? really?
Firepower,
I pity those men who think they can find a trustworthy woman. There never was one, none exists and none will ever exist.
damn straight.
fuck ‘em and chuck ‘em
Devlin hits the nail on the head.
The worst thing you can do in order to make yourself attractive to women is to listen to women about what they think is attractive (barring, perhaps, a particularly drunk one having a moment of honesty, but everyone drops the mask inadvertently now and again).
As to the youth thing, I view it somewhat differently. Youth is not a quality that increases in power as one grows younger; rather, it is a check box. Are you relatively young or not?
If yes, proceed.
If no, abort.
What makes my decision between a 19 year old and a 25 year old will not be the relative ages of each. Both are in play. However, either would have an overwhelming advantage (assuming they were attractive to begin with, rather than resembling a rotting beached whale) when compared to a 40 year old.
lucifer
I pity those men who think they can find a trustworthy woman. There never was one, none exists and none will ever exist.
Lucifer you are so full of it. You are the original the sneaky alpha. Look at how you got Eve to disobey her beta husband Adam.
Tyler D learned from the best.
@lucifer
there is no comparison between sex with a hooker and the love freely given of a woman you won. th idea of hiring a hooker to pose as GF is, at least for me, despicable.
self parody who looks old enough to be a single mom:
Just remember that when you’re dissing women and dreaming of gettin laid by 10’s because if it isn’t happening for you by age 22 or so….it’s only going to go downhill. Go to the gym!!!
do you hear that? that’s the sound of fear.
mmm… delicious fear.
gig:
there is no comparison between sex with a hooker and the love freely given of a woman you won. th idea of hiring a hooker to pose as GF is, at least for me, despicable.
true.
Sam:
Ransome is fantastic. Do you know his “Janet Waking”?
Dreamer:
The next oldest woman I have kissed was 34 and I enjoyed it tremendously.
gig,
Escorts are more honest than any girl you “love”.
You know what you are getting, and there are no strings, alimony payments, child support payments etc. Plus you can get any look you want, whenever you want..
gig,
it is never free..
People who think men “age better” than women do are just lying to themselves.
actually, men do age better than women, on average. men’s higher testosterone and thicker skin means they suffer fewer wrinkles than women at a given age.
self parody who looks 10 years older than her given age:
I’ll bet once you’re in your mid twenties the tables will turn….that’s when it did for me! And young guys are great for casual dating too. They die to do everything for you.
soon, much sooner than you think, those younger guys will see you as nothing more than a one off fuck.
and not soon after, you won’t even be good enough for that.
but of course you’ll keep telling yourself that’s OK, because that’s what you wanted all along.
i lie to me
i promise i’ll believe…
I’d rather a man have a few wrinkles than a receding hairline and a beer gut.
beer guts can be exercised away or avoided entirely.
wrinkles are forever.
unless you go the surgical route.
but then the rubber alien look is not too popular with most men.
about as popular as dating women with sprog baggage.
the cult of the body and the cult of youth weren’t new at all the the 60s generation. the main idea that the 60s contributed (to these “cults” at least) was the emphasis on “liberating” sexuality. although if you really want to get into that, there’s a whole literature by feminists of the time that argue that the “sexual revolition” was a concept (reality?) that mainly benefitted men – ie the fact that men (and women) no longer needed the “conjugal bond” to legitimate sexual desire.
also who are the “women who turned 20 in the late 60s?” feminists? hippies? not exactly the same
and what does he mean by “the cult of the body, which they had done so much to promote”. the idea of having control over reproduction? or the idea of being satisfied with your own body and not some idealized image? that’s what i think women of the late 60s (feminists) promoted and neither really had anything to do with the successive “disgust with their bodies” 20 years later. that, to me, has to do with the idealized stereotype of the body as portrayed in the media – maybe as a response to the idea of a sexual revolution and not necessarily an idea that “women in the 60s” espoused.
so really, i think this disgust is a generational thing, not a 60s generational thing. the cult of youth has been around for a long time.
M’Lady’s outburst calls for a soothing poem:
That is no country for old men. The young
In one another’s arms, birds in the trees –
Those dying generations – at their song,
The salmon-falls, the mackerel-crowded seas,
Fish, flesh, or fowl, commend all summer long
Whatever is begotten, born, and dies.
Caught in that sensual music all neglect
Monuments of unageing intellect.
An aged man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul clap its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress,
Nor is there singing school but studying
Monuments of its own magnificence;
And therefore I have sailed the seas and come
To the holy city of Byzantium.
Etc, etc.
I am no expert on gender and aging, but I do know this:
1. Women live longer, but they tend to wear out sooner.
2. Men have sex drives that extend well into their old age.
3. I see many more couples composed of older men and younger women.
4. Most men don’t have any hesitation to trade material goods for sexual favors from young women. Many young women accept the arrangement. The chimps do it, too. It is simply part of our natures. It is also true that young female chimps don’t like having sex with older male chimps.
5. Beer and a sense of humor help.
Well, the good news is that I got a new version of linux installed on my P.C., and I can finally start watching those videos Roissy posts.
BTW, I agree completely with those posts about women, youth, and beauty and sexual attraction. Sex is all about fertilizing eggs and producing young. Anything else is commentary.
lady pained:
I don’t know why you are addressing me
you’re a thick, juicy, leathery-skinned target.
not all women are sensitive about their age
my grandmother still applies makeup.
and not ALL people are obsessed with sex…dating…sex….dating like you are.
sure they are. they just don’t express their desires as endearingly as i do.
That is what plastic surgery is for.
you might wanna get on that.
If I ever need to diet or exercise, I’ll do that too I suppose.
a quicker way to improve your dating life would be to dump your kid in an orphanage.
I’m satisfied with my life as it is now so anything else is just a bonus.
how’s your love life going?
Sorry if that “offends” you.
you don’t offend me you dumb broad.
you amuse me.
you’re the platitude-spouting christian i throw to the lions for the entertainment of the colisseum.
(Thursday
Sam:
Ransome is fantastic. Do you know his “Janet Waking”?)
I do now. Thank you for this gift and also for your website which I greatly enjoy.
In return I offer “Her Eyes” also by Ransom.
To a woman that I knew
Were eyes of an extravagant hue:
Viz., china blue.
Those I wear upon my head
Are sometimes green and sometimes red,
I said.
My mother’s eyes are wet and blear,
My little sister’s are not clear,
Poor silly dear.
It must be given to but few,
A pair of eyes so utter blue
And new;
Where does she keep them from this glare
Of the monstrous sun and wind’s flare
Without any wear;
And were they never in the night
Poisoned by artificial light
Much too bright;
And had the splendid beast no heart
That boiled with tears and baked with smart
The ocular part?
I’ll have no business with those eyes,
They are not kind, they are not wise,
They are two great lies.
A woman shooting such blue flame
I apprehend will get some blame
On her good name.
I get the same feeling reading Ransom that I get reading Dostoevsky’s “Notes from Underground”. How did these men, dead long before my birth, crawl inside my head?
I dined this afternoon with my own azure eyed beauty. She is named (ironically) in honor of Ayn Rand. She lingered overlong over her empty plate. Do I dare?
You can even do it at 40 50 60 and 70
single mom:
and on the “baggage” you’re just ridiculously out of touch.
who would know better the mind of a man? you, or another man?
I’ve never had a guy not date me or even look unsettled when I mention having a son.
no shit. men hide their disappointment for as long as it takes to get in your pants.
the real issue is how long a guy chooses to stick around with you and your bastard child.
and from what you have told us about your invisible love life and ego-salving decision to abstain from sex for a long while, it sounds like not too many QUALITY men are interested in anything long term with you.
and by long term in LR’s world, i mean longer than one week.
There are tons of single mothers and fathers….
tons of lonely people…
where do they all come from?
it’s not a desperate plight like 1950, lol.
desperation isn’t a sudden injury that strikes like a thunderbolt.
desperation is a thief in the night that slowly steals your happiness, your joy, until one morning you wake up, a cold shiver running down the back of your neck, as you realize the best that life has to offer is no longer available to you.
It’s not any harder to date with a child than without one now.
duration of dating matters. try not to think too hard about all those guys who mysteriously stopped calling after a month of tapping your myspace ghetto ass.
MU Same deal w/the Guvernator. Arnold would have no problem getting Women your age if he wanted to.
Well he certainly looks better than the average American man 20 years younger. I saw a pic of him in a Speedo, not what he was 20 years ago but he is not bad.
Patrick Stewart is another Man who make Women of all ages swoon
My God that voice, how manly does he sound. He seems like type who would not panic in the eye of the storm. None of that clichéd “ run for your life” *girl screams* takes off running, leaving wife behind to fend for herself.
Roissy men’s higher testosterone and thicker skin means they suffer fewer wrinkles than women at a given age.
It’s not all about wrinkles. Out of control body hair, hairline receding, beer belly, years of bad posture, bad skin. Gray hair isn’t attractive on most people, men like Clinton, John Ensign, and Anderson Cooper are few and far between. Compare David Gregory to the other three.
there is nothing like youth of shell.
Age brings maturity and resources for men. For women, not so much since men look at women for looks first but… because some women are high earners, they can afford to play sugar mommy. They know the 25 year old female is better looking but they want to have their cake and eat it too.
Haha, thanks everyone. I was just playing around – I’m sure it’ll be fun & appreciate all the input. It’ll definitely give us something to talk about, right? Here’s hoping he doesn’t take you too seriously.
chiclet banging the same dull drum:
It’s not all about wrinkles.
wrinkles on a woman are a big part of her declining attractiveness.
Out of control body hair,
women suffer this too. that leg hair sure does creep up with age.
but body hair can be controlled a lot easier than wrinkles.
hairline receding,
shave it off. easy peasy.
btw, i have a friend in the biotech industry who says male pattern baldness will be essentially cured within 10 years.
beer belly,
women get disgustingly fat too.
years of bad posture,
happens to women too.
bad skin.
as i mentioned above, testosterone helps protect men against wrinkles. it’s women who have worse skin as they age.
Gray hair isn’t attractive on most people, men like Clinton, John Ensign, and Anderson Cooper are few and far between.
most women are OK with the salt and pepper look. gray hair is a lot more damaging to a woman’s sexual market value than it is to a man’s.
there is nothing like youth of shell.
speak english.
Age brings maturity and resources for men.
bottom line: aging hurts a woman’s chances for love and happiness a lot more than it hurts a man’s chances. there are clear biological reasons for this. women’s fertility declines faster than men’s, and women’s sexual worth is tied up to a greater degree in her looks than is a man’s.
nothing you say or lie about or evade will ever change this basic fact about human nature.
chic It’s not all about wrinkles.
wrinkles on a woman are a big part of her declining attractiveness
agrred but I was posting about wrinkles and men. I’ve heard some women say a few wrinkles add character.
have a friend in the biotech industry who says male pattern baldness will be essentially cured within 10 years. thank GOD.
nothing you say or lie about or evade will ever change this basic fact about human nature
Where did I deny this fact?
I simply sad that men think getting old is about a few wrinkles and it’s about so much more.
as i mentioned above, testosterone helps protect men against wrinkles. it’s women who have worse skin as they age.
Think Ray loitta. not wrinkles but acne. I’m not debating that same these things happen to women as they age. I’m simply pointing out how they are things that turn some younger women off from older men.
youth is priceless.
beer belly,
women get disgustingly fat too.
trust me it’s not the same thing. When men accumlate a lot of fat around the middle it’s an instant turnoff, it makes them look effeminate. Men can be big and beefy like some football players, and still viewed as very attractive. it’s the boweling ball belly that’s a turnoff for most.
Women end up less content than men according to research
http://college.usc.edu/news/stories/503/the-happiness-gap/
You can’t be a middle class regular guy, be 55 and balding, and be bangin hot young chicks. Doesn’t happen.
Back when I was in grad school, I knew any number of mid-20s women who were banging guys in the 45-55 age range. Never did see what these guys looked like – maybe they weren’t fat and balding – but they most definitely were banging hot young chicks. Then after grad school I had a job where a lot of the 40- to 50-something senior guys were banging 20-something junior women. But whatever, I must have imagined all this, because it just doesn’t happen.
Oh yeah, and at that job I had a 40-something senior woman (division manager) coming on to me (I was 25 at the time), not bad looking when all things were considered but totally gross compared to my 20-something coworkers, so needless to say I pretended not to understand her come-ons.
it’s the chiclet illogical parade:
Think Ray loitta. not wrinkles but acne.
i tell you women’s skin ages faster than men’s because women don’t have the protective powers of testosterone, and you bring up ray liotta’s acne.
do you see now why i denigrate you with the chiclet nick?
trust me it’s not the same thing.
past a certain weight gain, trust me, it is the same thing.
a woman who has put on 20 pounds, no matter where it sits, will lose the top 30% of men who would’ve been interested in dating her before she gained the weight.
weight gain is much worse for a woman’s prospects than it is for a man’s, regardless of your distaste for beer bellies.
Suburban Sweetheart:
“What’s a girl to do when she discovers she’s about to go on a pseudo-blind date with a guy who’s a devout Roissy reader?”
you should still go on the date. see for yourself what a guy steeped in roissy’s teachings is like in real life. i’ll guarantee they’re not as bad as you think.
my girlfriend knows i read roissy. in fact, she reads it sometimes without my urging (not sure if she’s reading *my* comments or just the posts), but she knows the nature of roissy, and it is a non-issue. hell she’s even asked me to submit her picture on here for the comparison roissy had a couple months ago.
As far as men aging better, let’s not forget they don’t tan their skin(super-bad) or put make-up on their skin every day either(bad).
Sure make-up isn’t that bad… for a day. 365 x 10 is 3,650 ‘not-so-bads’.
roissy i tell you women’s skin ages faster than men’s because women don’t have the protective powers of testosterone, and you bring up ray liotta’s acne.
do you see now why i denigrate you with the chiclet nick?
I don’t recall arguing this point roissy.
Original statement It’s not all about wrinkles. Out of control body hair, hairline receding, beer belly, years of bad posture, bad skin
Now why would you bring up wrinkles when I’m clearly not writing about wrinkles here^^^. You do know that acne scared skin is a form of bad skin.
weight gain is much worse for a woman’s prospects than it is for a man’s, regardless of your distaste for beer bellies.
Keep believing that if it makes you feel better. Some things only the rich and famous can get away with. The average beer bellied 40 something man will not pull a ten. Rich and famous beer bellied Jack Nicolson can pull a ten.
M’Lady, your plans to travel solo seem so sad. Really. Having someone with whom to share happy moments and new experiences is one of those non-rational things that makes us humans, and which makes life satisfying.
Didn’t you get choked up watching “Up” when Ellie gave back her My Adventure Book to him?
Anyway, your problem will be that you prefer younger men, and they will all be doing something else, with somebody else, when you are 50. You don’t sound rich, so even the option of keeping a young man around with money is closed to you. I know a 50 year old woman who was just like you when she was younger. She would only date men younger than herself and they had to have long hair. (We used to joke they were mostly gay guys.) She is 50 now, all alone, and has some health problems making it hard for her to work.
Didn’t you get choked up watching “Up” when Ellie gave back her My Adventure Book to him?
i did. thank god for those 3d glasses hiding my one manly tear from my date.
“What’s a girl to do when she discovers she’s about to go on a pseudo-blind date with a guy who’s a devout Roissy reader?”
I actually talk about the stuff that I read on Roissy all the time with women. Long, deep discussions sometimes. You just take the edge off of certain points, and you never directly refer to PUAs, Game, or Roissy–instead you’re talking about “social dynamics,” or “male and female relations.” Women almost universally express fascination in the topics and typically agree with most things I have to say…which is no surprise, since women should be primordially aware of the truth of the roissy-esque worldview.
What really makes Roissy scandalous lies more in the brutality of his writing style than the substantive content of his words, I think.
Here are some more great Devlin quotes from the same site:
The linchpin of our family policy objectives must be the reestablishment of presumptive custody of children by their father. Women who wish to abandon their husband must forfeit their parental prerogatives and all claim to spousal support. That means dismantling the entire divorce industry.
the regard in which our civilization has held women depends utterly upon their practice of monogamy, and makes no sense apart from it. As long as cases of female adultery were few enough, they could be passed off to men as freaks of nature, akin to two-headed babies. When, on the other hand, wives in their millions act upon the feminist plan of “liberation,” walk out on their husbands, separate them from their children, bankrupt them in divorce court, and shack up with other men, that system breaks down. That is where we are today.
There is still a boy for every girl in the world, but there is not a higher-status boy for every menopausal career girl who foolishly sacrificed her nubile years to achieving wealth and status for herself. These women, in other words, are victims of their own success; their lives are what they have made them.
Feminist observer Janet Steil found, however, that “couples will go to great lengths to conceal a high-earning wife’s income to protect the husband’s status as primary provider.” There is a sound reason for that: overt, prolonged role reversal is fatal to marriage. Researcher Liz Gallese thought she had finally found an example of a happy role-reversal marriage: the wife’s career was more successful than the husband’s, so he began looking after their child to let her focus on work (the economically rational thing to do). The woman seemed proud of her accomplishments and happy with the arrangement; and Gallese must have thought she had a bestseller on her hands. The reality came to light only when she began speaking to the husband. It turns out that the couple had entirely ceased having sexual relations. Armed with that new information, Gallese began probing more deeply into the wife’s sentiments. The woman eventually admitted she wanted another child, but — not by her husband. “I absolutely refuse to sleep with that man,” she declared; “I’ll never have sex with him again.” Instead, she was now flirting with other successful businessmen. She did not divorce her husband, however; he was still too useful as a nanny for the child. Such would appear to be the thanks men can expect for accommodating their wife’s career and “sharing the housework.”
2. Men have sex drives that extend well into their old age.
If only their erections were equally reliable!
(I kid, I kid!)
Patrick Stewart is another Man who make Women of all ages swoon. And let’s not forget Cary Grant, some of who’s best work came toward the end of his career (North by Northwest).
As much as I love Patrick Stewart (and I do), there is a big difference between making a woman swoon and making her actually want to get busy with you. Stewart could turn me into a simpering, giggling moron in conversation, even as old as he is now, but actual sex? Eeeeee, nononono. Past a certain age difference there’s simply no getting past the creepy father-echoes.
If you’re talking Cary Grant, most women who cite him as sexy are talking about him in his prime, not in his dotage. There’s a host of movie stars who were very sexy in their heyday, but much less so now. Time hits everybody. If you think it doesn’t, fear not: you’ll find out.
For every Patrick Stewart or Sean Connery, there are a thousand old guys who can’t pull like those guys. Not that that will stop them from thinking they can….
most women are OK with the salt and pepper look. gray hair is a lot more damaging to a woman’s sexual market value than it is to a man’s.
Sadly, this is true. And ironic, as greying hair is a function of genetics, and not even a reliable indicator of age.
hmmm… your comment appears to have been edited, Amestris.
But you and I both know that you originally wrote something like “men question you because women are their entire reason for existence, and when you say you don’t care about landing a man you take away his entire reason for being.” Or words to that effect.
phosphodiesterase inhibitors for ED
and
testosterone patches + 5 alpha reductase inhibitors for the other issues
..//If only their erections were equally reliable!//
High fives master dogen.
That is word. Even with all the crap I did. I was inspired to work with my hands on more than my woman this trip.
I built a 8 foot bench to sit on and painted it blue. Installed a shower, replaced another door, plus put up a fence in the back yard. The menfolk got together and bonded on these projects. I was ready to start building a resteraunt. 4 x 10′s where three bucks a piece so even a thousand of them would only be 3k. Not a bad frame start right there. I was starting to get excited. PLus satisfying as well. I think I just hit the right age or some shit not to need to be paid to do work for myself.
Hell yeah, gunslinger.
That is piss poor writing masquerading as intellectually poetic.
I’ll bet once you’re in your mid twenties the tables will turn….that’s when it did for me! And young guys are great for casual dating too. They die to do everything for you.
Uh huh.
Back when I was in grad school, I knew any number of mid-20s women who were banging guys in the 45-55 age range. Never did see what these guys looked like – maybe they weren’t fat and balding – but they most definitely were banging hot young chicks. Then after grad school I had a job where a lot of the 40- to 50-something senior guys were banging 20-something junior women. But whatever, I must have imagined all this, because it just doesn’t happen.
I’ve always heard of these mythical women, but only known 1 … I’m calling bs on this as a widespread phenom, even though I hear it bandied about regularly.
Do you not like hearing the other side of the coin? The truth about men and their weak spots? It does exsist…..you can’t hide Roissy. No matter how many cunts you try to fuck and make look bad.
Here is a quote for you:
There is no reciprocity. Men love women, women love children, children love hamsters.
another put-upon broad:
There is no reciprocity. Men love women, women love children, children love hamsters.
i must’ve been imagining things when my women loved me.
Christ almighty….have you lost your sense of humor??? The quote is an exaggeration….
I’m sure your women loved you as the day is light…but you never married them….things change.
BTW….I’m not another put-upon broad. If you give that title to any woman who disagrees with you, it shows your weakness. You give me some lame title to stifle the truth behind what I say…go ahead, it will all come back to you. All of your actions will come back on you.
i did. thank god for those 3d glasses hiding my one manly tear from my date.
SQUIRREL!
Good movie.
chiclet still not seeing the light:
roissy i tell you women’s skin ages faster than men’s because women don’t have the protective powers of testosterone, and you bring up ray liotta’s acne.
do you see now why i denigrate you with the chiclet nick?
I don’t recall arguing this point roissy.
Original statement It’s not all about wrinkles. Out of control body hair, hairline receding, beer belly, years of bad posture, bad skin
Now why would you bring up wrinkles when I’m clearly not writing about wrinkles here^^^. You do know that acne scared skin is a form of bad skin.
jesus christ you are a dumb fuck, or the biggest slippery weasel this side of the internet. recap: i wrote that men do not wrinkle as quickly or as badly as women do because of the protective effects of testosterone. you then replied to what i wrote with an irrelevant aside about ray liotta’s acne, said acne which has zero to do with the average difference between the aging rates of men’s and women’s skin.
is any of this getting through to you?
weight gain is much worse for a woman’s prospects than it is for a man’s, regardless of your distaste for beer bellies.
Keep believing that if it makes you feel better.
this isn’t about beliefs, it’s about facts. fat gain on a woman is much worse for her dating prospects than the equivalent fat gain on a man. you’d have to be living in a cave to not notice this gender discrepancy.
Some things only the rich and famous can get away with. The average beer bellied 40 something man will not pull a ten. Rich and famous beer bellied Jack Nicolson can pull a ten.
so? another irrelevant chiclet non sequitor. the average woman is not pulling a ten either.
do me a favor and stop replying to me until you’re ready to drop the dumbass act.
put-upon broad:
Christ almighty….have you lost your sense of humor??? The quote is an exaggeration….
exaggerations have to have some basis in reality. otherwise they are just lies. and unfunny ones at that.
I’m sure your women loved you as the day is light…but you never married them….things change.
are you an ex?
“actually, men do age better than women, on average. men’s higher testosterone and thicker skin means they suffer fewer wrinkles than women at a given age.”
I’m 37. Late 20′s chick left a birthday comment on my Myspace page a few months ago (back when Myspace was cool)
“Why do men get more handsome as they get older? Women just get wrinkles!”
I’m not a supermodel, but I’ve aged better than 95% of 37 year old women I’ve met in my lifetime, and most of the rest were asian/eastern EU.
How the tables turn for men after they hit 30….
M’Lady, your plans to travel solo seem so sad.
I don’t see what’s wrong about travelling alone. My parents have suggested that as an alternative to always sitting at home and being alone with no friends. When you travel alone, at least you have the freedom to do what excites you and go at your pace instead of worrying about dealing with another person. The only negative to travelling alone is the fact that you’ll have to eat in a restaurant alone like a loser.
I went to San Francisco alone last year, and I enjoyed the experience. It was the first time I travelled without family or chaperones, it was nice having that freedom to do what I wanted without compromising. Plus, it was kinda fun to masturbate in the hotel room even if that wasted a lot of my time that could have been used for riding trains or exploring…
Men’s attractiveness value does not decline at the same rate as a woman’s. But…they still have to keep relatively healthy. Nothing is worse than a middle aged, bloated, balding man. Shave your head if you’re losing your hair – bald is hot. Quit drinking so much it’s not good for the face, makes it puffy. Don’t smoke it makes your skin look grey. Grey hair is sexy if you have moderate amounts of it all over your head. Bigger men are okay as long as their fat doesn’t hang over their belt.
FYI – Women who are joggers get a an aged face sooner, mostly because of the movement of their running causing sag – look it up it’s called runners face. http://www.superskinnyme.com/Wrinkles_Running.html
Might make you think twice about an ltr with a runner right??
“you write like an aggrieved woman”
That’s a neg, why are you negging a man?
“Women aren’t going to tell a man that he has to be more handsome, more wealthy, or more masculine” – Chuck.
There’s a certain well “duh!” about that. Women know that the important part of a man that needs stroking is his ego (assuming that she cares). In real life those features can’t be changed much. A guy could get into shape but then Toby MacGuire doesn’t look close to an Alpha male in Spiderman. A bloke who isn’t on the path to wealth in his young years won’t magical be ‘financially enlightened’ in middle age (barring a lottery win). And, of course, being masculine is something a guy is born with you can’t change that.
Still, where did the notion that “a woman sexual peak is 35 years of age” come about? It doesn’t make biological sense – a woman has almost run out of ova. It doesn’t make physical sense – as others have already pointed out a MILF can look good but doesn’t have limbre qualities of a young woman.
P.S. Isn’t the term ‘cougar’ a woman’s preferred term for ‘MILF’ as they find ‘MILF’ derogatory?
Cliff Arroyo
Has anyone considered turning their courtship into a romantic comedy?
The world does not need another bastardization of Much Ado About Nothing. And there was only a happy ending because Hero wasn’t carrying Borachio’s seed.
Joel said: “Didn’t you get choked up watching “Up” when Ellie gave back her My Adventure Book to him?”
D’awww. ;_;
J said: “Anyway, I wonder if, when a man gets older, youth progressively becomes synonymous with attractiveness for him.”
Hmm. I suppose I gravitate toward older men (30-50+). I think this is partly because I’m comforted by the thought of a father-figure: someone who’s willing to call the shots and let me do the little housewife routine. Even with a 20+ year age difference, though, I’ll begin to look old to him at some point. If he can’t do any better, I’ll become his ball and chain…
Oy I’ve never thought about this stuff before. >_< This blog is quite depressing, haha.
Gil:
“There’s a certain well “duh!” about that.”
all of our social engineering makes it necessary to review those “duh” moments every once in a while.
“Still, where did the notion that “a woman sexual peak is 35 years of age” come about? ”
it’s a myth, plain and simple. if it were true, it would throw the whole bedrock of evolutionary biology into a tailspin. this phenomenon is merely sociological. women are merely more at ease and comfortable with their sexuality. they are more practiced and not afraid of looking bad.
women at 18 are hornier than women at 35, its just that women at 35 feel more free to talk about it because they have reached a point at which they are adult *enough* to talk about sex and have their sexual liberty. an 18 year old girl is much more constrained. she has family pressure, pressure from friends etc.
the high-charged sexuality of 35 year old females is a myth, and dangerous one at that. it creates a fairy tale in which these women can use their sexuality as an excuse to slut it up and cheat on their husbands. also, the early 30s is a time when many women have possibly recently divorced. also their children may not be in infancy, giving them more opportunity to have sex with large numbers of men.
Chuck,
It’s also possible that Women at that age, mid 30s on, have a stronger urge to have sex in order to fertilize whatever eggs they have left. That would certainly make sense, right?
O
O:
actually. you make a very good point. i’m obviously no geneticist or evolutionary biologist, but i can rationalize what you’re suggesting.
a young women, a woman who is more physically attractive and fertile has an incentive, and the time, to seek out a “quality” partner. quality in this sense means a man who gives the best chance for continuation of genes. this translates to a socially dominance and/or physically attractive mate.
an older woman has less time. her reproductive strategy (and her existence, as is that of men, is merely a function of her reproductive strategy) is to likely reduce her filter. she may be less discerning in her choice of sexual partners all as a way to gather as much sperm as she can for her less-robust gametes.
to put it simply, a younger woman has more incentive to have less sex, be more discerning in partners while she sifts through the mud and the muck while an older woman, given time constraints, has less time (her biological clock is ticking) therefore she will fuck anything that moves.
interesting comment.
Roissy
who would know better the mind of a man? you, or another man?
You have a point here, obviously, but be careful. If you substitute “woman” for “man”, the same argument doesn’t necessarily work.
Just remember that when you’re dissing women and dreaming of gettin laid by 10’s because if it isn’t happening for you by age 22 or so….it’s only going to go downhill. Go to the gym!!!
You’re full of shit as usual, LR. At 22 most guys have nothing but a slight advantage in looks on their on 32 year-old selves. By 32, a man is still youthful in appearange but much more experienced and mature (which translates into better ability to pass shit tests and display dominance) which is why male sexual market value tends to peak at early thirties.
I’m 31 and am pretty sure my net can cast wider than it could at 25.
This goes without saying.
As long as he haven’t let yourself go, and has his shit together to a moderate degree, any man should be able to pull more at 30ish than in his early twenties.
The major obstacle at 30ish, of course, is meeting young women (which becomes much much MUCH harder to do once you’re not in college anymore, unless you work in one or more of a select few industries).
The downside to that is when the hotter law school girls right out of undergrad learn my age, they seem a little put off.
I hope you aren’t considering “law school girls right out of undergrad” for anything other than a quick stopgap fuck.
And if you are, why are you ever getting to the point where they actually find out how old you are?
That’s a mistake. The less biographical information you reveal, the better, for that sort of thing.
At 22 most guys have nothing but a slight advantage in looks on their on 32 year-old selves.
And even that isn’t true, for guys who are still working out regularly by the time they’re 32.
Real workouts, by the way.
Weights.
None of this SWPL cycling, marathon running type shit. Unless they’re competitive distance athletes, men should not do any cardio that lasts longer than 20-30 minutes. Ever. Just no.
“my women loved me”
So you had that much in common….
Marcus Aureliette said that grey hair is a product of genetics. Yes and no. In my experience, grey hair is usually the result of sun damage to the skin. Sound shocking? Just look at your the distribution of grey hair on older people. It is in the same distribution as sun damage. Grey hair isn’t just hair that has run out of pigment. It is damaged hair (kinky, not smooth, and seems to grow excessively long (note those grey eyebrows and how long the hair gets on them.)
A dive boat is a great place to observe this correlation.
So, ladies and gents, wear hats. Those healthy tans are much worse than you think.
“I have even known conservatives to earnestly assure young audiences that the idea of sexual equality comes to us from Christianity — a crueler slander upon the Faith than Voltaire or Nietzsche ever imagined.”
– Devlin. Brilliant.
OK, I’ll come clean. I’m sort of between lesser beta and greater omega (a beta-omega? a nu?), though I have done things like simultaneously date two fatties. Anyway, I’m 30 and out of shape, and frankly a geek. I’m not going to be able to develop enough social acumen to do any of the more advanced game techniques, but picking up less fat girls might be a goal. Any advice on modifications of game technique for the Aspergery among us? Straight asshole game could get me sent to jail…
Roissy said:
“put-upon broad(meaning….one god damn sexy bitch):
Christ almighty….have you lost your sense of humor??? The quote is an exaggeration….
exaggerations have to have some basis in reality. otherwise they are just lies. and unfunny ones at that.
I’m sure your women loved you as the day is light…but you never married them….things change.
are you an ex?”
So you admit that there is no reciprocity? That was easy.
And no I’m not an ex….I can’t be….my STD test says I’m clean. ;0)~
Yet your still just a mystress
Never the bride.
chic noir looked serious and asked:
default, how old are you?
How old do you think I am (my [gr]avatar is probably no help here)?
How old would you like me to be?
If you are creeped out by older men looking at you, are you creeped out by young teenagers checking you out?
Epoxytocin No. 87 — Unless they’re competitive distance athletes, men should not do any cardio that lasts longer than 20-30 minutes. Ever. Just no.
That’s interesting. I have read that excessive cardio, such as running more than 30-40 miles per week without being complemented by weight training, kills the testosterone.
Is that where you’re coming from in your comment?
And just curious, is this amateur opinion on your part, or do you have medical or trainer background?
where did the notion that “a woman sexual peak is 35 years of age” come about?
A woman’s baby-craving desperation peaks at 35 – if she doesn’t have a potential father on deck by then, she’s pretty much toast from the reproductive standpoint. =)
Back when I was in grad school, I knew any number of mid-20s women who were banging guys in the 45-55 age range. Never did see what these guys looked like – maybe they weren’t fat and balding – but they most definitely were banging hot young chicks. Then after grad school I had a job where a lot of the 40- to 50-something senior guys were banging 20-something junior women. But whatever, I must have imagined all this, because it just doesn’t happen.
I’ve always heard of these mythical women, but only known 1 … I’m calling bs on this as a widespread phenom, even though I hear it bandied about regularly.
Hardly seems plausible to me that I happened to work in the one office in the world where this actually occurred.
The one senior guy who was the chief culprit was classic alpha – married with two kids and still boning hot younger women on the side. Another senior guy dumped his wife and kid and married the younger squeeze. There were still other beta senior guys who clearly relished the attention of the younger females but didn’t have the stones to take it any further.
.any man should be able to pull more at 30ish than in his early twenties
I don’t buy it. I am just shy of 26, and I can say that:
– I can go to nightclubs where the 18-20 girls go and do not feel creepy. Actually competing with guys 5 years younger is quite easy.
– I can hit on the social circle of my friends’ younger sisters without any trouble
– I can go to college parties AND have a social circle there, meaning that I have younger friends still in college.
by the time I am 30, all those windows will be closed. it will be much harder to meet girls below 21 since my friends’sisters will be above that threshold, I won’t have any friend left in college and i won’t have wingmans to go to 18-20 clubs, since they will few, just like me, creepy.
The access to the gigantic pool of 30+ women does not compensate at all the loss of access to the 18-20.
so I am enjoying being in the best age group possible, and I am, for the first time in my life, measuring the “wife-potential” of the girls I date.
If a perfect girl appears next month, I’d probably marry. But the project so far is “London 2012″, i.e. to marry before 30, while i can still easily pull girls with 20-21.
A female sex comedy about “game” Good grief.
@marcus
I’ll add to your grey hair argument by saying that pubic hair turns grey too and I’m betting not just for nudists.
Marcus Aureliette:
In the dictionary under “outlier”, it has to say, “See Robbins, Tim”. That guy is definitely wired wrong; you’d think a guy who’s been in Top Gun, The Shawshank Redemption and Will Farrell flick(s) could do better.
While Susan Sarandon has been attractive at some point in the last century, she isn’t quite a top-flight draw at age sixty-two, notwithstanding Mother Lover. After all, her turn in Bull Durham was nearly a quarter-century back and it was a Kevin Costner picture; reality is suspended in those. Patricia Clarkson falls in the same category, but then again, it might just be a visceral reaction on my part to their repugnant politics.
gig, what makes you think he hasn’t?
In the dictionary under “outlier”, it has to say, “See Robbins, Tim”. That guy is definitely wired wrong; you’d think a guy who’s been in Top Gun, The Shawshank Redemption and Will Farrell flick(s) could do better.
Obsidian asked for names of famous older women with younger paramours; I provided two. Whether or not Robbins could do “better” is a) irrelevant to this particular discussion (as is either of their current box-office potentials), and b) entirely up to Robbins.
aoefe:
Excellent point! That never even occurred to me.
Older women with younger men
Demi Moore
Madonna
List of celebrity pairings of older women with younger men:
http://www.angelfire.com/stars4/lists/couples-age-differences2.html
In some of these pairings the man is the celebrity, in some the women, in some both. But there are famous men with older women that’s for sure.
Wow so much fighting.
I think aging has to do with late bloomers vs. early bloomers.
I’ve noticed that those guys that look hot and more mature in their late teens and early twenties don’t age too well.
Then there’s this type of guy who’s skinny, awkward, and looks like he hasn’t even hit puberty at the age of 21. My friend and I sniff them out. We call them the “cute nerds.” By the time they hit their 30′s they usually gain some weight so they don’t look anorexic and they develop this more manly look.
As for hot older men? I can think of a few. Edward Norton, Olivier Martinez, Hugh Jackman. The oldest one is 42 though. And “The Illusionist” has a love scene between Edward Norton and Jessica Biel, Edward Norton being much older than her. So there’s an exception, LadyRaine. Although I do agree with you about the male body in general not being that attractive. Penis? eww.
The only really hot old man I can think of is Clint Eastwood. Yeah. That’s it.
There are hot actresses in the 30′s and 40′s (rare) range too. Although it’s not common. Seriously, once you hit a certain age, it’s over. The other day my friend pointed out how the once hot bombshell Cameron Diaz is playing the role of a mother in a movie. Then we walked by Victoria’s Secret and saw a picture of Alessandra Ambrosio next to Miranda Kerr. Alessandra hasn’t even hit 30 and she’s in the process of being replaced by a girl who looks like a china doll.
There are exceptions, of course. There’s this one Latin actress (I keep forgetting her name) who always plays the role of a teenager and is approaching 40. But like I said, exceptions. I think the late bloomer incident happens in women too, just not as frequently or obviously.
Aoefe Marcus
Really though for guys it doesn’t matter.
Then again it probably won’t really matter if my wife gets old looking since we are in it for life. So yea if you can do the lifetime commitment it might not matter so much. Guys probably can be forgiving of looks after a lifetime of service.
Your Empress-ness,
I don’t concur. I maintain that Tim Robbins is an outlier and therefore irrelevant for the purposes of this particular discussion.
An objective analysis of Robbins’ relative market position would suggest that he should be capable of attracting and retaining, at least in the short to medium term, women who are not on the cusp of qualifying for Social Security.
That he has the aforementioned (apparently unexercised) capability and has in fact gone almost 180 degrees in the opposite direction does not suggest total support for your theory but rather suggests that he is an outlier.
If, as you say, it is entirely up to Robbins, that further suggests that there’s something wrong with him. A man who could exercise a reasonable degree of market selection but yet chooses a sexagenarian more than ten years his senior doesn’t qualify for a presumption of normalcy.
Also, Mariah Carey, who’s nearing 40, is newly married to Cannon, who’s in his late 20s. My gut tells me this won’t go the distance but we’ll see.
I guess the point I was getting at is there is a difference btw how long a Man can stay viable out there on the market, and how long a Woman can. Again, Cary Grant was not only able to get yet another wife well into his dotage, but he sired a little girl too.
Now-can anyone point to me a similarly aged famous Woman coming anywhere near as close? I’ll wait.
O
Obsidian-
Your example of Mariah Carey and Nick Cannon is interesting. He strikes me as the type of guy with a strong interest (maybe even fetish) for older women. I have known guys like this, and there are plenty out there.
They want someone mature, intelligent, accomplished, and older, but the stipulation has always been – with hot looks.
These guys are out there, maybe their relationships are more real world and not in the media spotlight, but this should be considered here.
Age gaps are sexy, bottom line, for both sexes. It’s a psychological appeal that strikes deeply in some young men, too, I believe.
@ Dreamer
Your example of Mariah Carey and Nick Cannon is interesting. He strikes me as the type of guy with a strong interest (maybe even fetish) for older women. I have known guys like this, and there are plenty out there.
They want someone mature, intelligent, accomplished, and older, but the stipulation has always been – with hot looks.
But the problem is Mariah Carey isn’t particularly mature or intelligent. She seems to play the aging princess who has never grown up. She has the personality of a young girl without the aesthetic benefits.
Good read- Devlin says, in a long-winded way, what is posted here dozens of times a week. So even though I expected to, I didn’t really learn anything new.
Also, look like Roissy himself made an appearance in the Shalit book being reviewed:
“After three dates when I wouldn’t sleep with [a certain man], he dumped me, just like that! If you ask me, it’s because it’s way too easy for them. Why should they waste time with a girl like me when they can get it for free?”
heh. a certain man.
The Demi-Ashton thing is the exception that proves the rule, and is probably as much a publicity stunt as anything else. he is reported to cheat around quite a bit, unsurprisingly. Otherwise, men seek beauty/fertility=youth, women seek status/power/wealth/alpha behaviors, all more common in older men. 10-15 years difference in age is ideal.
Also, I’m trying my hand at freelancing on the side. I have a link to the blog in my name. If anyone needs any Excel work done, I’m both a talented programmer and have a great eye for design. I can take an hour-long task and automate it to get done in a minute.
Get your work done quicker, make it look better, and I’m really cheap.
Although I do agree with you about the male body in general not being that attractive. Penis? eww.
Like vaginas, if judged purely on aesthetics and not on how it makes you feel, looks all that great? They look like curtains made out of week old Boar’s Head roast beef. You women need to get over yourselves.
I agree on the cursory mental assessment of Carey. To me, she’s a headcase and not worth the trouble, even if she were 15 years younger. I’ve been known to date an older gal myself, but in all things, she must NOT be a headcase, Fatal Attraction, female Peter Pan type.
I say Cannon and Carey call it quites before they hit the 5 year mark.
Comments?
O
Two quotes from Houellebecq that I saved from The Possibility of an Island:
“Women give an impression of eternity, as though their pussy were connected to mysteries – as though it were a tunnel opening onto the essence of the world, when in fact it is just a hole for dwarves, fallen into disrepair. If they can give us this impression, then good for them; my words are meant sympathetically.”
“I had probably placed too much emphasis on sexuality, in fact, that’s indisputable; but the only place in the world where I felt good was snug in the arms of a woman, snug inside her vagina; and at my age I saw no reason for that to change. The existence of the pussy was already in itself a blessing, I told myself, the simple fact that I could be in there, and feel good, already constituted sufficient reason for prolonging this dismal journey.”
Another one, Usher trades in his older wife for an even older new woman:
http://www.mediatakeout.com/2009/33300-ushers_mystery_gal_pal_revealed_wanna_know_who_she_is__and_get_this_yall__the_chick_is_older_than_tameka.html
I don’t get it.
@Joe:
I was stating my own personal opinion on what turns me on. I can look at a woman and get turned on; I can’t look at men and get turned on the same way. It’s just how I am. I’d label myself a lesbian if I didn’t have a boyfriend who happened to be the one guy that I find to be really, really attractive.
marcus:
Obsidian asked for names of famous older women with younger paramours; I provided two. Whether or not Robbins could do “better” is a) irrelevant to this particular discussion (as is either of their current box-office potentials), and b) entirely up to Robbins.
what’s irrelevant is the load of steaming shit you’re flinging around here. for every older woman-younger man pairing, there are 100 older man-younger woman pairings.
psa: if you want to be taken seriously as someone with half a brain you’d be wise to avoid sounding like chic noir having a full spectrum asperger’s head banging fit.
Now-can anyone point to me a similarly aged famous Woman coming anywhere near as close? I’ll wait.
Having kids, no. Getting with significantly younger men despite getting up there in age? Unfortunately yes. Young guys have been dating Cher forever, God knows why. Madonna not only gets younger men to this day, but she gets younger men of high value like A-Rod or male model boytoys. And of course this list:
http://www.angelfire.com/stars4/lists/couples-age-differences2.html
I think it ties into feminization of men. Lots of guys look for mother figures in their women because they’re coddled by their moms and their dads are betas. Today’s young girls are barely mature enough to be a wife much less a mother figure. So they go older.
@joe- i don’t buy the mothering argument – it’s completely divorced from sex/sexual attraction. different behavioral driver.
for younger men with older female celebrities, how do you know it isn’t some combination of starfucking and careerism? in other words, sex as cold self-advancement, not raw attraction. the equivalent of women sleeping their way to the top. do you think it hurts baby jesus’s career to be visible worldwide in the tabloids?
“””””””””””””on June 22, 2009 at 11:39 am Seeking_Alpha
Also, I’m trying my hand at freelancing on the side. I have a link to the blog in my name. If anyone needs any Excel work done, I’m both a talented programmer and have a great eye for design. I can take an hour-long task and automate it to get done in a minute. “””””””””””
Why not just pivot table and segregate the data.
or advanced sort?
maurice:
in other words, sex as cold self-advancement, not raw attraction. the equivalent of women sleeping their way to the top.
that’s a good analogy. instead of sleeping their way to the top, men commit their way to the top.
anyhow, give it time. most of these older female celebrity-younger male B lister couples are inherently unstable. i bet within five years ashton has fully severed himself from demi and hooks up with a young hottie. as opposed to hooking up with young mistresses on the sly as he is doing now.
heh heh.
gunslinger
Why not just pivot table and segregate the data.
or advanced sort?
You mean in the first example on my blog? For someone new to Excel, I think my way is a lot simpler.
More broadly, I provide solutions for problems that can’t be solved with pivot tables. Programming can provide much more flexible solutions.
Yea it was based on your first eample. He could have each type of item on a unique page rather quickly with pivot.
If he just needed unique list with single entries for each advanced sort.
PA: That’s interesting. I have read that excessive cardio, such as running more than 30-40 miles per week without being complemented by weight training, kills the testosterone.
When you’re training in boxing or MMA, most fight trainers I’ve worked with tell you to run around 30 miles a week or so, spread out over 4 days a week. Road work is critical for conditioning. If you’re running 20 or 30 minutes tops everyday you’re still not doing enough road work. That’s only 3 maybe 4 miles a day depending on your pace which you need to spread out. You shouldn’t run everyday, which means you increase time you have for road work. Of course, that’s when you’re training and maintaining your conditioning. Weights are critical. I’ve picked up Kettlebell drills which have become wildly popular among fighters. The intensity of the workout can be very high and it allows you to knock out two birds with one stone. You can get a cardio workout from many of the drills as well as lifting. Its a great supplement to regular weights. One great side benefit is your grip strength increases dramatically.
for younger men with older female celebrities, how do you know it isn’t some combination of starfucking and careerism? in other words, sex as cold self-advancement, not raw attraction. the equivalent of women sleeping their way to the top. do you think it hurts baby jesus’s career to be visible worldwide in the tabloids?
Doesn’t explain guys like Usher who are more famous than their old women and get no career advantage from it. And a lot of our parent issues spill into our sexual behavior, otherwise so many strippers and serial badboy daters wouldn’t happen to have daddy issues.
JM whimpered:
I actually talk about the stuff that I read on Roissy all the time with women. Long, deep discussions sometimes.
I bet. And those cutesly lil’ tete-e-tetes are full of warm huggy, friendly feelings …absent any vaginal lips gripping your dick too.
beta
@Joe: The mothering argument actually does hold some truth. I was reading the book The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell; the first part discusses psychology and sexual desires present in myths and the symbolism behind them. One discussion had to deal with a woman feeling frustrated towards her husband who hadn’t yet “grown up,” in the sense that he was still attached to mommy.
Let me see if I can find an excerpt…I’m not doing it justice.
And as for older man-younger woman pairings: My dad is 15 years older than my mom. My friends call him a pimp. In his early 40′s he managed to bag a young, pretty, foreign woman. I think that might be Roissy’s dream. jk (sort of)
what’s irrelevant is the load of steaming shit you’re flinging around here. for every older woman-younger man pairing, there are 100 older man-younger woman pairings.
Dude, pay attention. She was responding to the demands to provide an example, with the disclaimer that it was for a position she didn’t agreed with. And her point was valid, outlier or not it is still an example.
yeah, that was me, whoops. Wouldn’t want to look cowardly by not owning up.
@mandy – that proves the point, though. if the man has mother/immaturity issues, it will make the woman less attracted, not more – the frustration in that example. if the older woman in these odd pairings is on the receiving end of a momma’s-boy syndrome from her younger guy, he’s not a sexual alpha. unnatural all around.
@maurice: Point made.
I wonder how men feel about young girls who have “father fetishes” or something like that. That must be pretty weird. I like older guys, but father fetishes? No.
@mandy – that proves the point, though. if the man has mother/immaturity issues, it will make the woman less attracted, not more – the frustration in that example. if the older woman in these odd pairings is on the receiving end of a momma’s-boy syndrome from her younger guy, he’s not a sexual alpha. unnatural all around.
There are older women who like being on receiving end of momma’s boy syndrome because of control issues. Maybe when they were younger they had a more dominant alpha and as older women they want something different. Been there, done that. They want a guy now that they can control.
Default User
chic noir you are creeped out by older men looking at you, are you creeped out by young teenagers checking you out?
sure she is: it’s likely she popped-em out at one time
fetishes, no. father-figure-attraction – *much* more common that the reverse. a father figure is an authority figure, a male who had power over a woman when younger, an alpha. i notice that lots of times women are attracted to men who are like their fathers, in appearance and behavior. it also explains why an older man/younger woman pairing is more natural – as it apparently was in your family’s case.
if you want to be a little more disturbed on this theme, go read “my secret garden” by nancy friday – written in the heyday of female sexual liberation in the 70s. women were asked to talk about their innermost sexual desires, and what came out wasn’t pretty. many rape and domination fanatasies, including in some lust after their actual fathers, not father figures. a classic study and must-read for men and women both.
@joe- OK, a good counterfactual. you’ve got me thinking what may be going on with usher. maybe he’s one of those rare guys who, having pulled as much young pussy as he could, and divorced from a wife who amost died after a plasctic surgery attempt that she hid from him, is at the stage of life where he wants maturity, honesty and companionship more than sex for its own sake. who knows? maybe he just cares about her, and the sex is good enough (if not optimal) to leep a relationship viable.
@joe – OK, but that’s something other than sexual passion or attraction. a totally different psychological dynamic.
@joe – OK, but that’s something other than sexual passion or attraction. a totally different psychological dynamic.
I agree, I didn’t claim it was. Some people like Michelle Langley claim older women and younger men are more sexually compatible though but I don’t know if there’s any truth to that.
al:
Dude, pay attention. She was responding to the demands to provide an example, with the disclaimer that it was for a position she didn’t agreed with. And her point was valid, outlier or not it is still an example.
don’t be specious. it was obvious to anyone without an emotional hobbyhorse to kick that she was providing counterexamples in the spirit of bolstering a false position that older woman-younger man pairings are nearly as common as older man-younger woman pairings.
so regardless of the existence of exceptional counterexamples, she has no ground upon which to draw any sort of “point”.
mandy:
And as for older man-younger woman pairings: My dad is 15 years older than my mom. My friends call him a pimp. In his early 40’s he managed to bag a young, pretty, foreign woman. I think that might be Roissy’s dream. jk (sort of)
god bless your pimptastic dad. he is doing the lord’s work.
couple questions. as the daughter of such a glorious paternal union, do you find yourself attracted to older men?
and from which foreign country does your mom hail?
roissy e-flirting with a female subject, instead of mocking ? there’s a change of pace. be nice, mandy, and your lord and master will return your kindnesses many fold …
Mandys last name is quite possibly “obama”
Yes, My Secret Garden and its sequel is MANDATORY reading for every man reading this blog(well, every man period). You want to cure yourself of the Madonna Whore Complex, READ THESE TWO BOOKS! You can d/l them from the Pirate Bay.
funky k
Yes, My Secret Garden and its sequel is MANDATORY reading for every man reading this blog(well, every man period). You want to cure yourself of the Madonna Whore Complex, READ THESE TWO BOOKS!
nah, it’s less trouble to just date a black chick for a week. And, you get laid 2.4 times.
roissy e-flirting with a female subject, instead of mocking ?
oh i flirt all the time with women on my blog. check the archives. it’s just that lately there haven’t been too many attractive women — inside and outside — worthy of my bitch shield shattering charms.
anyhow, i wasn’t actually flirting with mandy. my questions were asked with genuine curiosity.
ooooh specious. I admittedly am way too lazy to go back and reread to confirm, but I don’t think chic was arguing that they are ‘nearly as common’, just that they occur.
And my emotional hobbyhorse still plays in other pastures than worrying about age disparities that clearly exist. You have plenty on your site to send me into a tizzy, don’t worry.
i notice that lots of times women are attracted to men who are like their fathers, in appearance and behavior.
sadly, usually even true with girls who had terrible fathers.
@maurice: Well, I understand the father-figure attraction. I was talking about it once and got called nasty by some girls. W/e.
@Roissy: haha game runs in his family. My uncle could walk into a bar with an empty wallet and empty pockets and walk out drunk with a pack of cigarettes and at least ten bucks in his pocket. And women would buy him the stuff.
Yes, I am attracted to older men. I’ve always been. I was grounded for a few months when I was fourteen because I got caught when I was about to hang out with a 23 year old. I’m kind of glad they intervened because he was probably a pedophile, but still.
My mom is from Venezuela (originally Cuba).
VG:
I don’t concur. I maintain that Tim Robbins is an outlier and therefore irrelevant for the purposes of this particular discussion.
The fact that he’s paired with an older woman at all makes him something of an outlier. Reread what Obsidian asked for: names of famous women paired with a younger man. That’s all he asked for; that’s all I gave. I’m not recommending the relative merits of any of them, but there’s no denying: Sarandon/Robbins is an enduring older woman/younger man pairing.
That will never make it the norm is obvious to anyone with a brain, and never once in the history of posting to this blog have I ever claimed that it does.
To the contrary: I think it’s completely pointless to hold what celebrities can pull as any kind of example for either gender. Jack Nicholson can score hot babes because he’s Jack Nicholson. If he weren’t famous, it wouldn’t be happening to him on a regular basis, either. There’s no separating the effects of fame & wealth from age when you’re talking about celebrities, so unless you’re planning to become one, their example isn’t going to be nearly as useful as, say, Obsidian’s own tales of a regular guy who’s successful with game.
roissy:
what’s irrelevant is the load of steaming shit you’re flinging around here. for every older woman-younger man pairing, there are 100 older man-younger woman pairings.
Did I ever claim that that wasn’t the case? No. I didn’t. So untwist your knickers.
psa: if you want to be taken seriously as someone with half a brain you’d be wise to avoid sounding like chic noir having a full spectrum asperger’s head banging fit.
and
don’t be specious. it was obvious to anyone without an emotional hobbyhorse to kick that she was providing counterexamples in the spirit of bolstering a false position that older woman-younger man pairings are nearly as common as older man-younger woman pairings.
Except that I clearly stated that I’m not bolstering any such position! Seriously, what is your problem?
Kiss my ass and read what I’m actually writing, not what you wish I were writing.
Joe,
Some people like Michelle Langley claim older women and younger men are more sexually compatible though but I don’t know if there’s any truth to that.
Really young guys can sometimes benefit from being “shown the ropes” by an older chick. This applies especially to guys who have the potential to be sexually dominant, but aren’t (yet) because they’ve been programmed otherwise.
Anecdotally, for one-night-stands, older women are better at raw fucking, BJ technique, etc. Younger women usually need to be trained.
LR – “Just remember that when you’re dissing women and dreaming of gettin laid by 10’s because if it isn’t happening for you by age 22 or so….it’s only going to go downhill. Go to the gym!!!”
The go to the gym part is about the only thing I’ve seen you post that is solid advice. Mostly, you’re so far off target that the opposite of anything you say is fairly reliably a bullseye.
Up to about 25, I couldn’t get laid if I trolled through a Mexican whore house with $100 bills hanging out of my pockets. 4s and 5s dissed me.
At 35, physically all filled out, toned from gym time and a newly minted partner – young 20 somethings, 7s to 9s, were hitting on me. My law school classmates were marrying those sorts up to 40.
Both Joe and Maurice make strong valid points. Like Mandy, my Dad was considerably older than my Mom and they stayed together until she died. I cannot recall any such couple in the reverse.
In any event, from what we know about Women’s Sexuality, things tend to be short term; if that’s so, the May-Dec type relationships, where the gal is considerably older than the guy, may only last for a season or two.
Don’t know if anyone has mentioned Cameron Diaz and Justin Timberlake, but they were an item for a minute. So there you go.
Of course, our parents play a big role in our sexuality. We all recognize this; how often do we use the terms “Daddy” and “Mama” (or in the Hispanic community, “Mami”), etc? What Maurice said about Nancy Friday is right on the money, and if one takes the time to read Women’s erotica those themes are quite common. Nothing wrong with it in the least.
As for guys w/a Mommy complex as a result of the Mass Feminization of the Culture, I think Joe could be on to something there. Very interesting theory and certainly merits more investigation. Afterall, its very common for Men to select Women who in one way or another either act like and/or resemble their moms.
Interesting stuff.
O
@MA – i actually think you’re right – you weren’t arguing for what roissy says you were arguing for – but taking roissy on on his own blog is a fool’s errand. you’ll get flamed and shamed. best to just glide by and move on – your comments are well above average in quality and i’d hate to see you turned into a hater. (not that you would but…)
@Firepower
I bet. And those cutesly lil’ tete-e-tetes are full of warm huggy, friendly feelings …absent any vaginal lips gripping your dick too.
beta
Unless you use totally direct game all the time, I’d be surprised if your conversations with women – especially openers – don’t touch on at least some of the topics on roissy’s menu.
If you’re making a point about the “long, deep discussions” rather than about the subject material itself, then, yeah.
@obs – like their moms, yes, but *younger versions* of their moms. same look, personality, style, whatever, but not age. that’s the opposite for women, who commonly conflate sexual attraction with fatherly protection. chic pretty much says that every week. it’s part of what the alpha role is about.
@epoxy- the mrs. robinson thing is an initiation ritual to sex, usually not beyond that. (also how’d that work out for dustin hoffman? he fell in love with the hot daughter.)
@mandy- i can tell you’re going to be popular here. welcome and stick around.
maurice:
but taking roissy on on his own blog is a fool’s errand. you’ll get flamed and shamed.
He can flame me all he likes — or ban me entirely if it matters that much to him, although I can’t imagine why it would — but he is utterly powerless to shame me. That’s one of the big perks of living a virtuous life.
Thank you for getting what I was saying — and that goes for the Anonymous who commented earlier, too.
There is nothing more that I need, now.
Good, now you can focus on what your son needs.
transparent beyotch:
Reread what Obsidian asked for: names of famous women paired with a younger man. That’s all he asked for; that’s all I gave.
you gave it in the spirit of someone dashing cherished beliefs. it was quite obvious that your goal was to upend the prevailing wisdom. not everyone is an autistic case who can’t read the novella between the lines.
do note that the outliers you wave high above your head are so extreme they don’t even merit the gravity of argumention you are affording them in your tit-for-tat with obsidian.
To the contrary: I think it’s completely pointless to hold what celebrities can pull as any kind of example for either gender.
not at all. celebrities are representative of how normal people would act if they had limitless options in the sexual market. so in that sense they are perfectly legitimate simulacra of the true nature of men and women unconstrained by social or biological straitjackets — ids unleashed if you will. that so many more older male celebrities hook up with much younger hotties than do older female celebs with younger men says much about how the world in general would look if average men and women had free choice of partners.
Did I ever claim that that wasn’t the case? No. I didn’t.
you didn’t have to claim it. it was written all over your subtext.
Kiss my ass and read what I’m actually writing, not what you wish I were writing.
i think it bothers you that i see through your pretenses to fair-mindedness and logic.
“It almost makes me feel bad for women that this is the ultimately losing game they’re cursed to play. Almost.”
Look, I feel (sorta) sorry for those women who have invested their entire self-identity in their sexual allure. But are you men on this site really so reductionist that you think that is all there is for women? Even biological imperative grants women child-raising as an alternative.
PA,
That’s interesting. I have read that excessive cardio, such as running more than 30-40 miles per week without being complemented by weight training, kills the testosterone.
Is that where you’re coming from in your comment?
And just curious, is this amateur opinion on your part, or do you have medical or trainer background?
Partially.
I’m thinking more of the following:
(1) Skinny-Cardio-Fiend status is not a good thing. Unless you’re a natural Clydesdale, it’s tough to maintain a good physique with too much cardio.
Better to keep trim by eating right.
(2) After 20-30 minutes, it’s not really “cardio” anymore, in the sense of the word root (cardio- = heart). Your heart gets its primary benefit in the first 20-30 minutes, and prolonged cardio can lead to heart issues (particularly with left ventricular performance).
I’m not a medical professional, but I was a div I track and field athlete. I know more about stuff that’s directly related to track and field (plyometric training, peaking, speed training, power vs. strength lifting, etc), but I’m pretty conversant with basic exercise physiology.
if I didn’t always worry about my son first, I’d be dating casually and bringing random men around him.
Credit for not doing that.
You don’t know anything about my relationship with my son
I don’t, but I know he’s not growing up with a strong male presence in his home.
This may seem fine now, but there is a very low chance that it will still be fine when his teenage years roll around.
Dreamer – Your example of Mariah Carey and Nick Cannon is interesting.
A more typical example is the 44 year old Tommy Mottola marrying the 24 year old Mariah Carey.
Then divorcing her and marrying the gorgeous 29 year old Thalia when he was 51.
I know he’s rich and successful but he’s still short and old and getting beautiful statuesque women.
And in a lot of older women/younger guy couples the male is a homo.
Anyway, first of all Obsid and a few others have mentioned many romances with the older men/younger women and vice versa. Obsid, the reason I am not offering you examples is …
meh, you do actually realize that O just wants to fuck you
because you’re a white beotchLR – While I did come together physically somewhat later (I think I can say that I was more physically attractive at 35 than 25), the real point of all of these sorts of sites is getting men to understand what it is that makes them attractive to women.
That thing is, for lack of a better term, “personal power”. It is a mix of strength of personality, material resources and physicality.
Men are biologically programmed to be attracted to the toned, youthful, healthy appearance of a woman (those are indicators of good breeding potential for his offspring).
Women are biologically programmed to be attracted to the ‘good protector/provider’ for her and her offspring – and strength of personality, material resources and physicality are all indicators of the good breeding/raising of her offspring potential on his part).
It is hard wired into the unconscious of all people.
This site and others really teach men to convey the signifiers of attractiveness in the same way that a woman might look to a style/fashion/make up site for analogous info.
To: Cliff Arroyo and Keith
They are obviously a women masquerading as a man to post. That explains their man hating posts.
Surprise surprise, these shriveled cunts do not have the nerve to post as their actual personas and have to use deceit and lies to make their point…pathetic.
It’s completely normal for men to be attracted to younger women, even quite younger women. That’s just human nature, and it isn’t really changing much. The cougar phenomenon is mostly hype — there are, in less rarified circles than Hollywood, extremely few women in their 40s who are with men in their 20s.
Nova,
Excellent points, and at the end of the day, there’s really no way of getting around the fact that, on average, a guy’s chosing a younger than older-and by that I mean, 5 years or more-Woman. That’s really the truth of it, and as a Woman gets older, her chances of catching significantly younger Man grow longer and longer. Again, I don’t have any axes to grind against older Women per se. But seeing as how this venue is the place where Pretty Lies Perish, aint much sense in fakin’ the funk.
For every Tim Robbins/Susan Sarandon, Asthon Kutcher/Demi Moore pairing we can find, we can find easily, three times as many couples the other way around-and-they tend to last longer to boot. As for sex appeal, like I said, Women almost passed out watching Mr. Fantasy Island reprise his role as Khan in Star Trek II. I remember Women screaming in the movies when I went to see it-including my Mom, who took me, lol. And like I said, he was SIXTY ONE years old at the time. Can somebody please name me a 60-plus year old Women who elicits that kind of interest in Men more than half her age?? Oh yea, Cher-lemme tell you something, I know more *gay* guys into her than straight. Madonna, who is now a few years out from eligibility for AARP?-I don’t know ANY guy, Black or White or Latino, who finds her hot. NONE.
Again, I ain’t hatin’ on older gals per se; more power to em. But we need to recognize them for what they are-quirks of human nature, the exceptions to the rule. Nothing more.
O
However irrational it seems, humans are happiest when socializing. No amount of Stuart Smally affirmations or you go girl narcissism can change your natural, deep longing for close companionship with a man.
she knows this, mandy.
deep in her coal-shaped heart, she knows this.
it is pointless to point out hollywood pairings of older women/younger men. they operate on a totally different dynamic than the “real” world…
let me point out one thing, all of the older females in the pairings are of extremely high status. ashton kutcher (demi moore), nick cannon (mariah carey) and the younger dudes all benefit from their females higher social status in Hollywood.
in turn, the older women are able to maintain an air of youthfulness and relevance that is so important in Hollywood and the entertainment industry.
Dam mandy it’s always a woman who in the end rips the soul out of the other woman.
Chuck pursed:
in turn, the older women are able to maintain an air of youthfulness and relevance that is so important in Hollywood and the entertainment industry.
glad you’ve returned: you’re living proof shame no longer exists in its past form.
roissy:
you gave it in the spirit of someone dashing cherished beliefs. it was quite obvious that your goal was to upend the prevailing wisdom. not everyone is an autistic case who can’t read the novella between the lines.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? I AGREE with the prevailing wisdom! There is no “between the lines”. Anything you see there is entirely of your own manufacture.
do note that the outliers you wave high above your head are so extreme they don’t even merit the gravity of argumention you are affording them in your tit-for-tat with obsidian.
I’m not going tit-for-tat with Obsidian, I agree with him, as I stated from the outset! Obsidian — and others — understand exactly what I was saying; why don’t you?
you didn’t have to claim it. it was written all over your subtext.
No subtext, as you obviously realise if you’ve read any of my other posts here.
You really are behaving quite pissily, especially considering I’ve clearly agreed that whole older woman/younger men pairings are only ever going to be rare and unusual.
i think it bothers you that i see through your pretenses to fair-mindedness and logic.
LOL! No, it merely amuses me that for all your macho bluster, you have so little grasp of either fair-mindedness or logic. Or even reading comprehension, for that matter.
Firepower:
you’re the guy that stopped responding to our interaction from the other day…i’ve been here the whole time.
Prevailing wisdom is not always the thing to follow.
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”
The irony is that those who advocate their own version of panacea for what ails society fail to recognize that their cure is merely another type of poison.
LR – many of us older guys (say, age 50 or so) aren’t really interested in an LTR with a 20 something (if I want to talk to such folk, I can talk to my own kids), a long weekend in Vegas, perhpas, but you are boring with much more time than that.
My contemporaries (over 45, well off financially and accomplished in some field of endeavor, but not super rich or famous) who are venturing into the marriage water again tend to settle down at a 10 to 15 year age spread.
@km – yup, that’s what i did. 16 years younger, foreign, brilliant, beautiful.
Where is she from maurice?
That sort of an age spread tends to cement the natural inclinations of humans – he sees her as “younger” (but not so young as to have nothing in common to talk about when not having sex) and she sees him as that leader/provider (largely due to the personal power imbalance aided by his greater life experience and being further along in life accomplishement). It’s a win-win deal.
@gunny – brazil. your wife is indo, yes..? indonesian girls can be stunning…
@km – yeah, and not being quite young enough to be a daughter. not skipping that whole generation. for some reason, above 15-16 yrs and up to 20+, is less common to be successful.
after visiting America, I concluded that Brazil is for US blacks what Russia is for whites. Poorer, messed up countries with much more beautiful women that are also feminine.
I just saw in the plane a couple like that, American black (at least american accent) with brazilian black girl. American black girls look like the girls who would be in Mordor, praying and waiting for the safe return of the armies fighting against Gondor.
Ahh brazil so you have been reading the internet yea heard many good things about brazil woman back when rhoosh was raving about it.
Yea wife is indonesian. It has been an experience.
wierd I became anon lol
@Turkish thought
“Cliff Arroyo ….(are) obviously a women masquerading as a man to post. That explains their man hating posts.”
Believe me I don’t hate men or women, what I hate is unreflective shallowness (of the kind displayed by our host). Both men and women are tragically human, each in their own lame, dumbass way that no one with brains wishes to absolve or endorse. Urges that evolved through millenia of foraging existence do not serve to forward the cause of civil society and progress. Yeah men are hardwired to chase much younger nubile women (who are hardwird to cheat on their aging asses).
Hint: Humans have consciousness, let’s use it.
Men and women who think with their genitals without any other life strategy are doomed to unhappiness and failure (or appearances on Jerry Springer) and screw things up for those of us who depend on a large number of people making life choices (including those of longterm partners) that don’t totally suck. The life choices of our host (and most commenters) ….. suck donkey balls.
“Surprise surprise, these shriveled cunts do not have the nerve to post as their actual personas and have to use deceit and lies to make their point…pathetic.”
So your first name is “Turkish” and your last name is “Thought”, right? Let me guess…. hippy parents?
“Believe me I don’t hate men or women, what I hate is unreflective shallowness (of the kind displayed by our host).”
@Cliff –
I can understand well that a woman might dislike what Roissy has to say, but I’ve never really found him unreflective.
This is an interesting thread..but I have found that fucking younger women is not all it is cracked up to be.
KM is right though: beyond the fuck, there is little useful about girls in their early twenties. Their pussy is not worth the price of their gabbing mouths and vacuous minds.
I had an affair with young girl in her early twenties last year. She had a great body but she was too immature and after a while I wanted nothing more of that.
Many girls that age still flirt with me though on a daily basis, but I am in profession that allows this to happen regularly. The thing is I do not go looking for it. I am aloof and the girls know that I won’t pay them the time of day if they are dingbats. I am not even trying to flirt with them yet they come to me. Honestly.
I find the Cary Grant comments interesting though, since I suppose that would fit my looks and personality the most out of all the celebs mentioned here. He is a good example of a man who aged gracefully. Women like that.
Men should stop worrying about fucking younger women. When you reach a certain age, fucked enough women, then you should be looking for quality over quantity. Accomplishment and looks are an aphrodisiac for most women. If you are restrained and disciplined, the women will come to you. If you are trying to act like a 25 year old, they will repulsed and laugh at you behind your back, or to your face.
And most girls in their early twenties are not that good in bed anyways. They are too unsure of themselves, unaware of their bodies, never had an orgasm, don’t masturbate and have too many self esteem issues still to be worked out. Even most beautiful girls in their early twenties think they are still ugly on a lot of different levels and that comes out in bed. Fucking girls that age is not all it is cracked up to be.
What I had with my younger lover last year was a deep emotional connection and that led to great sex. We both loved each other and that was all we needed. Although she had a certain maturity to her, in the end she still turned out to be a typical 21 year old. There was nothing wrong with that, but after the sex there was not much left.
About the question of why people pair off together if they are of different ages.
MAYBE THEY LIKE EACH OTHER.
When you consider how hard it is to find somebody you really, really like, with an attraction which will long outlive the initial sexual attraction, if you find such a person, you have a keeper.
It doesn’t have to be complicated.
What follows may be offensive to those with sensitive stomachs.
BTW, for people who doubt my ideas about grey hair and sun damage, please do you own research. That is, just look at people of various ages with their clothes off. It is obvious.
Now, if you examine really sun damaged skin under the microscope, you will also notice that:
1. The superficial collagen of the skin is badly denatured and thickened. They call this elastosis, but really this represents crosslinked collagen fibrils which are no longer capable of being recycled and replaced.
2. Many, if not most, of the hair follicles have been invaded by an arthropod just below the the limit of naked eye visiblity. Called Demodex, these guys (girls, really), push their way into the hair follicle. The follicles are relaxed and open, likely because of the sun damaged skin. In the follicle, they seem to feed on the grease. All such parasitized hair follicles are chronically inflamed and therefore damaged. Their cute butts protrude out of the hair follicle. You can guess what the male Demodex guys are doing.
And, please have some perspective on this age thing. Life is short. That young girl you marry will be old in a few years. You better make sure she is a keeper (see above.)
she was providing counterexamples in the spirit of bolstering a false position that older woman-younger man pairings are nearly as common as older man-younger woman pairings.
You are a lier. No where did I say that. I mentioned in my post that fewer women have relationships with younger men. Why it should bother you so much that a few older women have young play things anyway.
what’s irrelevant is the load of steaming shit you’re flinging around here. for every older woman-younger man pairing, there are 100 older man-younger woman pairings
Who debated this point? Not one person here has debated this point.
Maurice for younger men with older female celebrities, how do you know it isn’t some combination of starfucking and careerism?
Good point and I agree. I think the difference for women who go into relationships with men who are much younger versus men who go for younger women is the former is less likely to believe that it’s true love. Demi Moore is anti monogamy and said as much in an interview in Bazaar magazine a few years ago while still married to Bruce Willis.
If Madonna wants to pay to play with that handsome 21 boy, that’s good for her*. Would be nice to have him around along with the Warhols on the wall.
*her children not so much
Perseus And most girls in their early twenties are not that good in bed anyways. They are too unsure of themselves, unaware of their bodies, never had an orgasm
so sad but so true
*screams and runs away in a fit of tears*
Chic Noir
If they are looking at me like I am a piece of steak, then yes.
And if they are looking with admiration? Not overly aggressive interest?
Default I want you to be between 24-30.
That is exactly the age group I prefer as well. You might be a bit young, but I can make exceptions.
Chuck brayed:
Firepower:
you’re the guy that stopped responding to our interaction from the other day…i’ve been here the whole time.
damn, I did it again. must’ve got bored
Many of the recent posts under the name “Mandy” are not mine.
too bad, we enjoyed that smutty sextalk
that was so sweet, i’ll need a moment alone to get it together
awww…do you need a hug?
yes. no…. I don’t know. I’m all mixed up. feelings, sweeping over me in waves.
so
beautiful
How about a snickers and a midol?
Look, I feel (sorta) sorry for those women who have invested their entire self-identity in their sexual allure. But are you men on this site really so reductionist that you think that is all there is for women? Even biological imperative grants women child-raising as an alternative.
Yes, if she has no sexual allure, then she merely just material for a platonic friendship.
Especially women that only have one child.
I suspect that may be true for some women. My cousin was the same way when she dumped her boyfriend and stayed sexless for several years. She already had her kid, and she didn’t want any more, and the men availible weren’t to her liking.
just don’t talk about HSM – and you can eat both
What’s HSM?
And I was offering them to you, silly. It’s not polite to reject gifts from people.
gosh.
default And if they are looking with admiration? Not overly aggressive interest?
Admiration is okay I guess but I’m just so shy with strangers that I may give b-face because I feel uncomfortable. Even when other women give me compliments, I feel embarrassed.
hmm…
So they think you’re mean, chicnoir?
chic noir
but I’m just so shy with strangers that I may give b-face because I feel uncomfortable. Even when other women give me compliments, I feel embarrassed.
Do try and enjoy compliments even if you feel a bit embarrassed. Each one is a small lodgment in the confidence bank. Over time your confidence will build and your shyness will go away as you realize those compliments were deserved.
Mandy:
My mom is from Venezuela (originally Cuba).
Gentlemen, stay far far away from Cuban woman for anything other than a fling.
Hopeless:
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”
Which is why you manipulate it from the outside, at a psychologically safe distance.
Mandy time to take your 17 year old ass back to schoolwork until it is 18
I’ve already graduated from school. Thanks for the suggestion.
And Tupac, I am curious to see what you say about Cubans. I’ve never really considered myself Cuban, being raised by an American father, and a mother who only remembers Venezuela. I know there are a lot of annoying chongas; maybe that’s what you’re talking about?
Mandy
hmm…
So they think you’re mean, chicnoir?
I’ve had men tell me that. Even the more “thug out” have said they thought I was mean or that I look like the type who will knock a guy out if he says the wrong thing. believe me, my b-face works, it’s keep me from being bullied on the streets.
thanks default, I will try to keep that in mind.
I know a lot of people that tend to put up that front of being unfriendly or a b, but it’s to avoid being bullied or taken advantage of.
Are you someone who used to be prone to receiving that sort of reaction from people?
chic noir
thanks default, I will try to keep that in mind.
Just don’t give me that mean b-face thing, OK.
BTW:
When using the b-face, be careful that you don’t scare of the kind of guy you would like to meet. Or is not been scared by the b-face shit-test they must pass?
And Tupac, I am curious to see what you say about Cubans. I’ve never really considered myself Cuban, being raised by an American father, and a mother who only remembers Venezuela. I know there are a lot of annoying chongas; maybe that’s what you’re talking about?
It’s different if you’ve been raised in a different culture.
I live in Miami.
Most Cuban women blow up like blimps once they get a ring on their finger. Then they turn into whip-cracking shrews. Horrible horrible people. Unlike any other hispanic ethnicity, even though all women are prone to this to some extent or another.
I would love nothing more than to slap Chic’s b-face with my tumescent cock.
Epoxytocin – these law school girls go to my school. I basically live, work and go to class around them. I’m not going to lie about who I am, and sometimes people ask when you graduated college. 31 isn’t too old for 23 year olds, and I’m certainly not ashamed of it. But there is the shocked reaction which is a little offputting…yes, however, they are mainly good for fucktoys and that has to be the aim.
I work with two other interns that are pretty hot, both have boyfriends. I’m doing the subtle asshole game.
LOL TUPAC I LIVE IN MIAMI.
I know what you mean. The other day my mother and I were talking about how women just gain wait like crazy after they get married here. It happened with one of her acquaintances. To be fair, her husband isn’t slim.
There’s that type of Cuban girl who’s a little thick when she’s younger, but people say she has a good body because she looks curvy yet firm. In ten years those curves are going to turn into muffintops and rolls. She could work in a bakery.
To be fair, I’ve seen a lot of pudgy Latino men. I even had a friend who said,”I worked out all summer, then I went to Argentina to visit my grandma and I got fat again.”
I don’t understand it. If you’re with someone, you want to look good for them. Sex, physical passion, all that stuff is part of love. Sure, you’re going to marry based on personality and appearance, I would think. But keeping in shape and fit for that person is important. You want that person to think,”Wow he/she is beautiful inside and out.”
But maybe I’m weird. I don’t know.
Tupac I would love nothing more than to slap Chic’s b-face with my tumescent cock.
*being the prole the blk low iq female that she is, chic noir goes to look up the defintion for tumesscent*
definition of tumescent via Merriam- websters online
:somewhat swollen Visually
Elephantiasis
Looks like you may need to get that checked out buddy. It looks like one of those 5 dollar coffee drinking tattooed Barista women’s studies power itchs gave you more than a good time.
*Shudders*
now I understand why Clio keeps running from you.
*Shudders*
hey chiclet, after tupac is done tumescently cockslapping the b out of your mug, i’m gonna step in from five feet away and jam it up your anus. spread those cheeks, chic, and nair your asshole, i don’t wanna see no nappy assed jungle canopy down there obstructing the view, ya know? after a few unlubed painful stabs at your rectal womb until your spotting from the newly formed hemorroids of love, i’m gonna bust out a firehose on your back and watch as you clean yourself off with your copy of “the secret”, then i’m gonna have my way with your other orifices, mouth, cunt, navel, and ears, and shoot a thick viscous salty load into your eye while backhanding the stupid smile off your face. and you’re gonna beg for more, crumpled and *shuddering* in a pile of tears ashamed at your powerful desire for the blessings of my cock that you cannot control.
You know, after seeing what’s been going on around here, I think it’s a good idea to take gunslinger’s advice in come back in a few months. o.o
You know, after seeing what’s been going on around here,
you were expecting recipe swapping and book club readings?
You know, after seeing what’s been going on around here, I think it’s a good idea to take gunslinger’s advice in come back in a few months. o.o
Y’all come back now, ya hear?
No.
I wasn’t.
I’ve actually been lurking before I started posting. I just didn’t get involved that much in the comments.
Whatever maybe I overreacted.
Many noted that:
maybe [she] overreacted.
I think that is called a shit-test.
I guess we passed, if you are still here.
Good girl
Mandy I mispelled your name above (in case you missed the comment).
roisst hey chiclet, after tupac is done tumescently cockslapping the b out of your mug, i’m gonna step in from five feet away and jam it up your anus. spread those cheeks, chic, and nair your asshole, i don’t wanna see no nappy assed jungle canopy down there obstructing the view, ya know? after a few unlubed painful stabs at your rectal womb until your spotting from the newly formed hemorroids of love, i’m gonna bust out a firehose on your back and watch as you clean yourself off with your copy of “the secret”, then i’m gonna have my way with your other orifices, mouth, cunt, navel, and ears, and shoot a thick viscous salty load into your eye while backhanding the stupid smile off your face. and you’re gonna beg for more, crumpled and *shuddering* in a pile of tears ashamed at your powerful desire for the blessings of my cock that you cannot control
too verbal for a guy.
chiclet:
too verbal for a guy.
that’s right woman. i’ll be doing all the talking cause your mouf gonna be occupied choking down my mizzle stizzle fo shizzle.
Mandy
You know, after seeing what’s been going on around here, I think it’s a good idea to take gunslinger’s advice in come back in a few months. o.o
Aw, Mandy don’t let blah blah blah…
[editor: too verbal for a bitch.]
Default User stated:
(blockquote)I think that is called a shit-test.
I guess we passed, if you are still here.
Good girl(/blockquote)
Um…no.
Unless…I do those without noticing.
Well, I guess it was just posting without thinking, mainly. I freaked out, thought I was leaving, then chilled out and decided to stay when I realized that I could learn some valuable stuff here.
I apologize if I’m not really contributing.
Darnit I need to look at how to do quotes again.
chiclet:
too verbal for a guy.
that’s right woman.
Are you sure about that? Remember ….
[still flapping your ho gums? here, steady yourself against the bedpost. i’m slipping the submarine deep into your ocean. this is gonna tear up your pussy, but without pain there is no pleasure. that’s good, yelp a little more for me. you need something to bite down on? wipe those tears, baby, they just tears of love. ps: mizzle stizzle = meat stick. now that you know, you can get to work putting your lips and mouf to some good use.]
Roissy’s blk slang made me laugh so hard I choked on water.
Hey, Chic, I still read what you wrote. It was funny. Earlier people were saying that Roissy and LR are destined to marry, I’m thinking Roissy and Chic. Just maybe.
you see, what’s interesting chiclet is that i know EXACTLY what gets under your skin. you have a real FEAR, a HATRED, of being demeaned, sexually degraded, objectified, and disrespected as a filthy slut whore. you are a control freak who would sooner shoot a man dead than bear your enslavement to his desire.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T that’s what it means to me.
so i know how to make you dance to my tune. i can have you striking out in anger… RED HOT ANGER… just by diminishing your worth as a WOMAN to a mere hole for me to pump into.
is this hatred of women as you claim? oh no, my lovely little ho bag. it’s much MUCH worse than that.
it’s hatred of… you.
Roissy, when you get angry at people IRL, are you that…explosive?
Roissy, when you get angry at people IRL, are you that…explosive?
it’s my only weakness.
*this comment general woundwort-approved*
I can see that.
You remind me a lot of a friend of mine.
You’re an artist, yes?
more of an aesthete.
artists are too message oriented. i prefer to distill the beauty and ugliness to their invigorating essences.
Could beauty be a message?
only despite itself.
have you ever tried to find meaning in something only to break it down to its constituent parts and realize what was once there is no longer?
Yes, in nearly every work of literature I had to analyze during my high school career.
I had to write a 4500 word paper comparing different works of literature of my choice. One of them was A Clockwork Orange, which I thought was brilliantly written. I hated it. After a year of research I just wanted to chuck the book in a trashbin.
Scientifically speaking, I find the carbon chains that constitute life…miraculous. o.o
now I understand why Clio keeps running from you.
I never wanted her to love me.
I just wanted her to come out and play.
@tupac: Play what? Tag? :O
@tupac: Play what?
Wrasslin’ the Id Monster in Roissy’s Playpen.
Until the Ego comes along and tries to get you two to compromise.
Clio is ALL superego.
Unfortunately.
the id is a porterhouse steak.
the ego is the fork and knife.
the superego is the tiny side of broccoli.
Broccoli is a deceitful vegetable.
Because it looks like miniature trees. But isn’t. It’s flower buds.
epic failure.
Broccoli is a deceitful vegetable.
i’ve always thought snow peas look like they’re up to no good.
Because it looks like miniature trees.
choppin’ broccol-i!
But isn’t. It’s flower buds.
a petal for your thoughts?
epic failure.
a vegetarian reading this just got his first heart attack.
Mandy:
You seem to have such air of innocence and humilty, that i believe is only temporary.
Roissy- male vegetarians exist? I think “her” would be more accurate.
collegeboy- no. It’s FOREVER.
FOREVER.
FOREVER.
Along with Santa Claus and the Boogeyman.
Mandy
I use mandy with a lower case m. I’ve used this name on various sites. I’ve been posting here a while. I’m not a guy and I’m not impersonating you. I had no idea another Mandy posted here.
Don’t I feel like an ass.
Should I change my username to something else, then?
I could be Amanda, I guess. Unless that’s taken.
roissy:
actually, men do age better than women, on average. men’s higher testosterone and thicker skin means they suffer fewer wrinkles than women at a given age.
actually, the main reason men age MUCH better than women has to do with rates of facial bone loss being much, much slower in the average man compared to the average woman (per empirical peer reviewed research in plastic surgery):
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/251507/bones_to_blame_for_aging_face/index.html
people take note…roissy and mandy? now that’s sexy e-flirting.
everything else of the past month was just painful.
There actually is a physical basis for men getting more attractive with age. Facial bones morph and less mature, nerdy looking guys tend to fill out and become much more attractive (approach the female desired aesthetic ideal) in their 30′s than in their 20′s.
Mandy – What’s HSM?
chic noir trying to spell cat.
Man, it’s my dream to work Devlin into a research paper if I ever have to take another sociology class in college, though thankfully I probably won’t. The professors would be so shocked and disgusted by the hideous truths he reveals, I think they would simply collapse and die on the spot. Does anyone know if Devlin still teaches anywhere? I know he said in an interview that his first college fired him after he published Rotating Polyandry. I think Roissy should interview Devlin for the blog, that’d make one hell of a badass article, not about game stuff but just about the impact of modern women’s behavior on society. I’m sure there’s gotta be one gender studies/sociology department that would be willing to hire Devlin somewhere in America.
@WillardLibby:
haha that’s mean.
Devlin is whiskey-like. He is to much anti-woman. I agree with most of what he says, but he exagerates in his blame of women.
It is strange, becase i am currently “reading” the “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”, and Gibbons, a man who couldn’t be possibly considered a SWPL pretty much blames everything on men, just like Jessica Valenti. His dynamics are always the same: a manly people achieves greatness, becomes effeminate, bribes a manlier people to fight for it, and is in turn destroyed by the bribed people or by an even manlier people that appears out of nowhere. Be the romans, turks, arabs, greeks, mongolians, anyone.
the effeminacy in men leads to slutiness in women. I believe that the day the first men lied to avoid going to Vietnam, Jessica Valenti was born. And it was also the day where women started taking Simone de Beauvoir seriously.
@Mandy
Its fine, I’ll just change mine . See?
“At 22 most guys have nothing but a slight advantage in looks on their on 32 year-old selves.”
And even that isn’t true, for guys who are still working out regularly by the time they’re 32.
You may be right. A modest degree of ruggedness in a man’s looks is probably only good. Think Camel ads. But then again, too much is too much. The Camel man is only five years from looking old.
Real workouts, by the way.
Weights.
None of this SWPL cycling, marathon running type shit. Unless they’re competitive distance athletes, men should not do any cardio that lasts longer than 20-30 minutes. Ever. Just no.
I have to disagree. Muscles are not the be-all and end-all. If a man has flab to lose, cardio is much faster and efficient than building muscles. For most men, building even 10-20 pounds of muscle is a long-term project. And when you’re bulking up, you can’t help adding some fat.
Willard Libby:
Mandy – What’s HSM?
chic noir trying to spell cat.
…in ebonics – yet, lol
so, mandy still hasn’t figured out what “HSM” is…
i’d tell ‘her’ to google it, but
heshe prolly don’t know what that is eithernaughty, saucy little man-dy
High school musical?
And how am I naughty?
I think this story says a lot about the female sex. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1194910/Teenager-Kimberley-Vlaminck-56-stars-tattoed-face-finally-comes-clean.html
I think it says a lot about people and how stupid some of them are.
At least you know to avoid her. Nothing screams,”I’m stupid!” more than 56 ugly stars tattooed to your face.
Chic,
Come on over the Racer X honey for some sweet loving…
Roissy,
Aren’t quotes like these the reason we need to restore order to the mating market? You see the problem with modern polygyny, but your solutions always seem to endorse it. Are you worried that your falling for a self-serving bias?
Mandy (big “M”)
High school musical?
And how am I naughty?
1. Yes
2. I dunno, maybe bc you don’t get a prostate checkup once a year like you’re supposed to – you are the one who’s the dood – right?
Lady Rain@
“My point is, the gentlemen are not very realistic about life. You can’t be a middle class regular guy, be 55 and balding, and be bang.n hot young chicks. Doesn’t happen. “
LR, you tend to make things into absolutes based on your experiences and preferences, as I mentioned earlier. I’m not knocking you, and I realize that you partially do it as a devils advocate arguing, but the world is chock full of people who think and feel very differently from you. I mean.. quite differently.
1. I know a man who is 40, 5’4”, with a small pot belly. He is an entrepreneur, does ok for himself, and is a competent day trader, but is not rich by any means. He is well traveled, and intelligent, but if you looked at him you wouldn’t see much of anything that you would find attractive.
On his cell phone is a rotating stable of 12 girls between 17 and 22, no strings attached. I’ve met most of them, they are very attractive. One is actually hot, the rest are very cute to very pretty. I personally wouldn’t touch any of them because they are sketchy broads. But he likes them, they do adore him. The fact that he deals with them when he wants to, and half the time ruthlessly refuses to put up with their crap, amazed me.
2. I know one of the original guitarists for the Afghan Whigs (does anyone remember that band) – he drinks at some of my haunts. He is pushing his late 40s, looks a bit like Billy Bob Tornton, has a slender build, no pot belly, and facially is youthful for his age, though he does have a head full of gray hair.
Stole one of my buddy’s girlfriends, months ago, after chatting her up for 15 minutes. A few years ago he dated off and on one of my old platonic “lets just be friends” crushes, the girl was around 27 at the time. At the same time he was with her, I regularly saw him in local bars with other absurdly cute young girls. The fact that he’s one of the best guitarists in town adds to his charm, but he only plays at dive bars nowadays. The fact is that he’s one of the most charming bastards within a 20 mile radius. He is not rich, he does construction when he’s not teaching guitar. Utterly charming, I’ve seen him pull women whose beauty you would be unable to comprehend.
@Firepower:
1. No.
2. I’m a dudette. You might want to upgrade your prescription before you start tripping over things, like the blowup doll you left laying on the floor in the middle of your room.
quit scratching at my windows. You’ll get your anal…
a dudette? kwl
you’re also either a bit schizo, or nervous.
what with changing your name from “Mandy” to “Anonymous”
The anon thing was an oopsy, I didn’t notice that my name and e-mail weren’t already typed in.
and thanks for the offer, but no thanks.
Lady Rain, again@
You know, I have two more examples actually:
Man three is a bear of a man, like a bearded shaggy grey lumberjack, guitarist for another formerly famous local band that went nationwide, now plays in bars. His steady, adoring, girlfriend – and current band mate – is an angel. Unconventional girl, artistic, tattoos, musician, but he swooped her up from fierce young competition. His pot belly could fit me in it curled up like a foetus. I do not kid you.
So in my rather small social circle I know three guys who contradict your view. Man one is black, Man two is white, Man three is white, man two has more game than both man one and man three, man one has more game than man three, man three however has a keeper, a steady life partner that happens to be 20 years younger than him. All men are satiated, and happy, with their love lives, though man one and two do become a bit bored with the young girls they have access two. Man three is happy as a clam.
Man four is an outlier, he poaches girls from circles with .. different .. social mores. Man three used to be HOMELESS, goes by the name of a well known cartoon character, he has ugly male pattern baldness. He doesn’t even bathe often. I was told that he’s pushing 40, but I haven’t verified this. He is shaped like a pear and has bizarre sideburns. He’s goes through local Metalhead, punk, and hipster girls from the age of 14 – 25. Frankly, the guy’s a bit sleazy. That doesn’t stop 16 year old girls from copulating with him in abandoned buildings and sharing beer with him.
I consider this sleazy, but far from me, is player hating. Something about him charms girls, some of whom I’ve tried to date but have been shot down by. The things I’ve seen some girls do for some men never fails to astound me… but that’s probably because I’m rather naive for my age.
One of my brother’s friends is an absurdly hot redhead, well build, 22 years old. She comes from rich parents, she went to a prep school. She dropped out of high school to move in with a mid 40something scruffy coke dealer. She spent a few years as his gangster b.tch. Then she decided to get her GED, and then go to art school.
I have two more examples, but someone more traveled, and more experienced, than myself could cook up many off their head. Yes, I’ve hung out with some .. unconventional .. oddballs in my life, but in a small town social circles mingle and merge.
” .it’s not a desperate plight like 1950, lol. It’s not any harder to date with a child than without one now..”
One ex of mine was a single mom, one of her main complaints when we first met was how hard it was for her to date with a child. She actually used to lie to most guys she dated and tell them that the kid was her nephew, that her sister was a trainwreck and she often babysat for her.. She pulled that line on me for the first 3 months we dated until I figured out that the little nephew, well, wasn’t a nephew.
She was afraid, and I understood her lie because frankly anytime she was upfront about her motherhood status guys fled. And she didn’t do it in a very trashy way, she was actually married for years, then after she got pregnant her husband took to drinking and harder drugs and started beating her. One kick to the belly with steel toe boots and a trip to the hospital later and the marriage was effectively over. Did I know this history going in? No. By the time I found out I very much cared about her and was willing to overlook the initial dishonesty…
The point is that her inability to attract quality men while being upfront about her motherhood status, and her ability to attract somewhat better quality men by lying about her motherhood status, was a real dynamic in her life.
And no I am not making this up.
I’ve heard this complaint from a number of other single mothers in my social circle, as well. Granted the more physically attractive they are the easier it is for them to get dates, but the problem becomes one of quality. It is almost impossible for every single single mom I know under the age of 35 to attract and keep high quality men in their lives, for longer than 2 months. It is absurdly easy for the pretty ones to get l.aid by hot guys, very easy as well to end up with friends with benefits, much harder to get anything resembling a real commitment.
And no I am not making this up. I hear it all the time. There are a lot of women in my social circle.
I think that your experiences are not representative of many other women.
typo on my part
“Man four is an outlier, he poaches girls from circles with .. different .. social mores. Man three used to be HOMELESS, goes by the name of a well known cartoon character,”
should read
Man four is an outlier, he poaches girls from circles with .. different .. social mores. Man FOUR used to be HOMELESS, goes by the name of a well known cartoon character,
Man three’s never been known by the name of a cartoon character, man three’s FAR too cool of a dude for that..
Mandy explained:
The anon thing was an oopsy
you are so adorable.
not as pinch-on-the-chubby-cheeks and smack-the-ass adorable as little m mandy, but it’s only bc you’re older
LR,
Have you heard the expression “Men age like wine, women age like milk.”
Even if the average 55-year-old man can’t pull a 20 something woman, many 55-year-old men can. The same is not true for 55 year old women. A few Harold and Maude outliers may, possibly exists but I’ve never met any.
@josh
I don’t know Roissy’s true motivation but I suspect he’d prefer society were ordered more in accordance with traditional values but realizes this is an impossibility under the current matriarchial regime.
If all men did 2 things:
1. Developed game’
2. Avoided marriage
This charade of a social order would fall like a deck of cards. I’d give it less than one generation.
Either, society would be taken over by fatherless, feminist raised savages and spiral into continual violence or women would use manipulation and peer pressure to stop other women from continuing in this social engineering experiment. Counter game if you – the women would have to roll back misandrist laws, give up some rights (or accept equal responsibilities), and be willing to let her husband take the lead in all matters beyond what he delegates to her.
” It is almost impossible for every single single mom I know under the age of 35 to attract and keep high quality men in their lives, for longer than 2 months. It is absurdly easy for the pretty ones to get l.aid by hot guys, very easy as well to end up with friends with benefits, much harder to get anything resembling a real commitment.”
@Kamel –
Indeed, and the reason is that there are relatively few high quality single guys who are interested in raising another man’s kids. Again, there are other opportunities available to quality men beyond single mothers for LTR/commitment. The best bet, I think, for a single mom in getting a quality guy to commit is to find a guy with kids of his own and do the mixed family thing.
hungry hippos@
I enjoyed reading him, his arguments were cogent, I’d disagree here and there – and there is a real bitter tone that he restrains in his writings. But I can’t expect him to be non-reactive and objective concerning something he is passionate about.
A problem with gender studies and sociology lies in the nature of the tenure system.
Any department who would hire him would only do so as an adjunct, until he formally made tenure at that institution.
The who process would not only require him to publish a good deal of well received critically reviewed material (and given how controversial his ideas are this would be difficult) but campus politics would pretty much create a climate in which most universities would just as soon fire him to get rid of a firestorm on their hands.
Now someone who put up with a political climate e disagreed with, toed the system line, and THEN started publishing more controversial ideas after being well established in a tenure system, would stand a better chance of keeping his job, and status.
The firestorm Camile Pagalia endured, when she published her first book – by today’s standards much of what she wrote has seeped back into the intellectual atmosphere but in the late 80s and early 90′s what she wrote was rank heresy and she endured a scathing that could very well crush the careers of others.
Also she was a bit queer secular and female, which gave her a slight bit of license to say unpopular things about her own gender. no one could accuse her of being a closet church conservative. Even still she was raked through coals.
Academia is engineered in the way it is, for a purpose.
@mandy, small m:
I don’t exactly know how I feel about that.
In rolling back the times, will women no longer be able to go to college? To have a profession if they so desire?
Will women no longer be able to work, to vote?
In the past, matriarchal societies existed. They fell. Patriarchal societies have fallen as well. This doesn’t mean the end of either.
And the concept of fierce, independent women has existed for thousands of years. It’s not unnatural. Look at some of the Greek Godesses. Although the Greek societies weren’t “equal” in any sense of the word, their mythology did create some pretty independent, intelligent women. That must say something about their culture. (Or maybe not).
@Mandy –
The patrilocal societies have all lasted much longer and been more successful than matrilocal ones. Anthropologists, even feminist ones, say that there is no evidence that there has ever been a political matriarchal society. At the most some societies were mixed politically with elder women having some political influence, but institutional political power was generally at the very least ascendant, and in almost all cases, dominant in the hands of males. But some of these societies were indeed matrilocal.
The main issue with matrilocal societies is that they underutilize men. You can say that the same is true in patriarchal societies, in terms of underusing women, but the key difference is that all patriarchal societies utilize women extensively for mothering, whereas matrilocal societies do not utilize men for fathering, hence there is *no* real contribution of most men to society in a matrilocal system. And when men are not being used as fathers, they tend to slack off, and not invest in themselves or society. Hence the currently observed trend among men to tune out, withdraw, play Warcraft and look at women strictly in terms of getting laid. That’s what happens to men in a matrilocal society.
I would hope that at some future stage, once we are done with the current shenanigans or we’ve gotten sick of the social cost, that we will arrive at a place where women and men can pursue either career or family life (knowing full well it won’t likely ever be balanced), but that strict norms of monogamy are reinstituted for the good of the social order.
Kamal makes a good point wrt tenure and the Ivory Tower. Simply put Paglia has a better chance of weathering the storm than a Devlin ever will. Its not for nothing that even among the highbrow academic classes, Women are beginning to take over. For the most part, its losing its allure amon Men, who tend to like to tell it is and quite frankly, shock folk more, than do Women.
And I have to say, that I’ve always liked Paglia. She got a lot of heart, I’ll give her that.
As for Devlin’s piece, several points he makes stand out to me:
1. That Black Women are the cannon fodder of the current day Feminist movement. This cannot be disputed at this point, the stats and the jury is in.
2. That Women by and large (there are always exceptions) CANNOT be objective about these matters, because they are simply not wired that way. This is way taking what Women say about Game, or taking any such “advice” seriously from Women, is a Cardinal Sin among PUAs.
3. And three, we have lost the role of the Wise Woman, aka “Crone” in society. I personally can attest to the hardwon, hardheaded wisdom such Women pass on to younger Women, as my great grand mother was the one responsible for my Mom marrying my Dad, and w/o whom I would not have had a Dad to begin with. Nowadays, the “Crone” is out slutting it up w/the younger gals. Sad.
I agree w/Kamal’s assessment of Devlin, his writing does hint of a bit of hurt and scorn, but nevertheless what he points to cannot be denied, whatever the motivation. It repays close study and reflection, even if you disagree w/him.
O
Mandy (this is wierd!)
I see you are very attached to “liberal autonomy theory” that they highest good is to let everyone in a society do what they want with little guidance based on natural inequalities.
First of all, women doing things like going to work or college because “they desire” is a bad blueprint for society. That is nice that we are more educated and financially ‘independent’ than previous generations, but it has an effect on everyone around us. We are not simply individual ions bouncing around but part of a fabric we did not design. Men generally did not do the dirty work of creating society (like coal mining, ditch digging, sewer cleaning and the BIGGIE: dying in battle…) because they desired it.
The only matriarchies that ever existed where hunter-gather stone age systems. It is impossible to create an advanced society without a strong patriarchy. Whenever a formerly strong society slipped into feminism, it lasted about 2 more generations before falling to a strong patriarchy. (J.D. Unwin Sex and Culture)
Letting women vote and work for any reason other than feeding the family (i.e. women have always “worked” unless they were wealthy it was just generally not in businesses) destroys the public social fabric in unintentional ways that most women do not like to see.
1. They will vote based on emotions and for unsustainable projects (socialism, nanny statism, big government to protect the “little people” from whatever bogey man can be concocted)
2. They are a disruptive force in men’s work and school environments. Hence the nonsense “Sexual harassment” lawsuit industry. If women must work it best to be in an industry separate from men. Same with education. if the point of schools is to teach, why put adolescent boys in class rooms of adolescent girls? We cannot socially engineer our way around human nature.
3. Intelligent independent women reject feminism in all manifestations. The democratic Greeks would laugh in our face at the idea that women can take on any role a man can in society.
There is just something about mens’ brains I’ll never comprehend that makes them the natural leaders of humanity. Woman completely lack this. But unfortunately he West has raised several generations of women who are unwilling or incapable of seeing that we are not the same. Which means unequal with means we are simply not good at the same things cannot ever be taught to be.
No matter how good equality sounds on paper, if we mess with this natural balance and things go haywire.
Devlin’s stuff is quite good. He tends to overstate at times, and there is definitely a bitterish tone that you can tell he is working to try to cover, but his substance is mostly spot-on.
As for Paglia, any feminist who says something like “if women had been in charge throughout history, we’d all still be living in grass huts” is my kind of feminist. The cool thing about her — she doesn’t give a damn what anyone else things — she thinks for herself. And it would be hard to find a feminist who has greater scorn for feminist orthodoxy than Paglia. She’s just a total iconoclast — which I think is really fun.
gig@
“It is strange, becase i am currently “reading” the “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”, and Gibbons, a man who couldn’t be possibly considered a SWPL pretty much blames everything on men…. “
You’re reading Gibbon?
Impressive.
Men of a certain generation made mistakes in our society, some time ago, whose effects will haunt us for some time to come. Many simply do not see the full extent of the effect, a pulling on a thread on the sweater’s sleeve, a buckling of the weft elsewhere. Most women and men alike are enjoying the superficial benefits of certain social changes, and it will be sometime before we see the full consequences. Much current chaos in families and society are consequences of bad decisions made in good faith. In a few cases bad decisions made in bad faith, but mostly good faith. This is NOT to say that the previous order was preferable, but people should have more discernment in looking outside the box for solutions to a current problematic situation, instead of overturning it on its head, why not tweak? See nuances worth retaining? Considering long term impacts of granting certain types of freedoms and liberties, and removing certain boundaries?
Is hindsight 20/20? Yes, but much could have been predicted, and indeed was predicted, early on. I argue that we are only on the tip, the cusp, of more profound social changes whose consequences will be far uglier than any of us suspect. If Gibbons saw about modern Western society today I have no doubt his tone and air would be one of..
disdain.
“..His dynamics are always the same: a manly people achieves greatness, becomes effeminate, bribes a manlier people to fight for it, and is in turn destroyed by the bribed people or by an even manlier people that appears out of nowhere. Be the romans, turks, arabs, greeks, mongolians, anyone. “
Yeah… I enjoy history because seeing the exact same patterns repeated for 5000 years, among EVERY race, EVERY nation, on EVERY continent, gives me clarity. When we find many around us, be they conservative or liberal, too myopic to face basic facts that people act in very predictable ways, irrespective of ethnicity, race, and cultural conditioning, when given certain stimulus, we are forced to step outside of the people, and look at things in a more abstract way. To try to kill our prejudices and assumptions (difficult as it may be) and see things for what they truly are. THIS is a challenge.
Also history is s.exy too. Or at least some history. Reading between the lines most players could take some serious lessons from history and literature….
@novaseeker and obsidian:
Wow.
Ok, I’ll start with novaseeker first: So your ideas and my ideas (both women and men being able to pursue career and/or family life with monogamy intact) are the same. I think, to some extent, that’s what everyone wants. I think that may have been the original goal of feminism. See, this is why, to some extent, I would consider myself a feminist. You can tell I don’t hate men. I don’t think women are better than men. I mean, men have cooties, but that’s besides the point.
I consider myself a feminist because I do want to pursue a career (I hope to eventually find a cure to my mom’s medical condition) and I would like to vote. But now feminists are preoccupied with stupid non-issues, like whether men should hold the door open for them. And there’s all this sexual liberation,”OMG LET’s SLEEP AROUND WITH WHOEVER!” business I don’t agree with.
And Obsidian:
I feel so sad that our society no longer values the elderly for what they can contribute. The elderly have experience. Someone who’s 67 isn’t just 67 but is also 21, 35, 52. Luckily I’ve maintained friendships with a few older women and they’ve given me a lot of insight. I think it’s because our society has taken a shift towards pushing the “Crones” aside that these Crones try to be 21 again.
“I consider myself a feminist because I do want to pursue a career (I hope to eventually find a cure to my mom’s medical condition) and I would like to vote. ”
@Mandy –
Indeed, as do I. I do not agree with taking the vote away from women or preventing women from doing what they wish to do in terms of career and so on. I think that’s old hat, though. Women do have these freedoms now, so I guess I don’t think it’s particularly feminist to believe in them any more — they’ve become the status quo, and to be honest I think most men support them, too. More hot chicks to look at in the office, anyway
But seriously, I think the main issue is getting relations between the sexes and family life back on track. We can’t do that without getting fathers back in the game, and I don’t think we can do that very well without re-invigorating monogamy. That’s both a cultural and a legal thing.
I do think a lot of people agree with this perspective. Unfortunately, there are quite a few SWPL loudmouth people on the coasts who do not, and who want to embrace sexual libertinism without taking into account the impact on everyone else. It’s these people that are the problem. And they have an influence that is unfortunately large.
Obsidian@
” And three, we have lost the role of the Wise Woman, aka “Crone” in society. I personally can attest to the hardwon, hardheaded wisdom such Women pass on to younger Women,”
This hit me right in the forehead, the old grandmamma who always had real earthy wisdom. She’s scorned or non existent. Made obsolete and irrelevant in an age in which non youthful femininity has no value. The fact that most women nowadays can barely cook is one small sign of the failure to pass to future generations important cultural knowledge.
I can get away with saying this because, frankly, I cook better than most women I’ve dated. I don’t have a muffin top as a consequence of my actually being able to, well, cook good meals. I’m not slender, I used to be chubby, before I started cooking for myself, but I don’t have a bloody muffin top, unlike most of the local corn-fed “hotties” around here whose idea of cooking is a TV dinner.
Mandy(smallm)@
”Whenever a formerly strong society slipped into feminism, it lasted about 2 more generations before falling to a strong patriarchy. “
Elizabethan England. There was a bit of a feminist revolution at the time, with a corresponding transfiguration of values, the increasing popularity of male rakishness, increased public roles for women in the arts and society. In contrast to the previous gender order. In many ways the real history was much more radical than what people were taught in school. After she died there was a rapid, in one generation, imposition of an even more forceful patriarchy. Good Queen Beth was still venerated, but the social transformations of a nascent feminism were all but obliterated.
Gig .. again@
People in general are real mirrors for me. I observe folks around me, to figure out what to first avoid like the plague, and second, then deconstruct. History is a great aid to this.
Many, at best, pay lip-service to notions that their culture and civilization are somehow immune to patterns repeating themselves for millennia. But all civilization today is derivative, built on the ashes of dead ones, usually by the descendants of barbarians who overwhelmed and inherited earlier phases. Often to improve on it.
Gibbons describes something similar to what Ibn Khaldun describes. Khaldun was on to something: This quote, for example, could describe much in our society today:
“In the early stages of the state, taxes are light in their incidence, but fetch in a large revenue…As time passes and kings succeed …. they lose their tribal habits in favor of more civilized ones. Their needs and exigencies grow.. owing to the luxury in which they have been brought up. Hence they impose fresh taxes on their subjects … raise the rate of old taxes…. But the effects on business of this rise in taxation make themselves felt. For business men are soon discouraged by the comparison of their profits with the burden of their taxes…Consequently production falls off, and with it the yield of taxation..“ –Ibn Khaldun.
Pretty perceptive for a 13th century Arab Muslim.
That two men, separated by centuries, one in North Africa, the other in England, could both hit on the essentially cyclical nature of civilization, fascinates me. Often folk reason away historical truths, in a self-serving way, and it is rare to find the few men who dirty themselves with dealing with its much..
“..Untruth naturally afflicts historical information. There are various reasons that make this unavoidable. One of them is partisanship for opinions and schools… Another reason making untruth unavoidable in historical information is reliance upon transmitters…
Another reason is unawareness of the purpose of an event…
..unfounded assumption as to the truth of a thing…
…ignorance of how conditions conform with reality..
Another reason making untruth unavoidable – and this one is more powerful than all the reasons previously mentioned – is ignorance of the nature of the various conditions arising in civilization.. …Every event, whether essence or action, must inevitably possess a nature peculiar to its essence as well as to the accidental conditions that may attach themselves to it.”
Constant tension exists between settled and migratory elements in humanity. Between manly and alpha barbarian savages, and more effeminate beta civilized sedentary folk, playing itself out over waves of migrations over centuries. An Empire or Civilization eventually hires the savages as mercenaries and soldiers, they become integrated into the society, have disputes over power and resources, original stock are overwhelmed and more virile barbarians, increasingly civilized and sharing the values of the order they take over, rule and set up a new dynasty. Sometimes improving upon the older order, sometimes not. Soon they grow decadent and unmanly, addicted to affluence and luxury.
This pattern can be observed, with modifications of course, today. We should look at the dynamic underlying things.
Like anything in life, look at a woman, you do not really see her, you see her shadow. What little you see of her physical beauty is simply just light reflected off her, you perceive how she pleasantly displaces space, but do you really perceive her? Or do you see the traces, upon your sensory faculties, that her essence and physical presence leaves.
Perception never fully grasps reality. We can see the traces left in human
Mandy
One more point, you seem like a nice young woman so I hope you do not find this condescending. You will probably not learn anything that is really important in life in college. I was a young woman in college, too and I wish someone told me these things.
That is wonderful to want to help cancer patients. That is also however a demanding career. Please ponder this now: Do you ever want children?
You absolutely cannot have a successful, demanding ‘career’ and raise your children well at the same exact time. I know I’ve tried. Something has to give and you will have to decide which one you are willing to sacrifice. I’m sorry none of your feminist professors will let you in on this truth. Once you look at your baby’s face, you will understand it.
A much better model for society would be for women to marry young, have kids then once the kids are older go back to college and work on a cure for cancer etc…
“The hand that racks the cradle rules the world.”
OOPs that should be rocks, not racks!
Yea mandy you have been here a while go with mandy its been a while or something or mandy big m can change it up. You actually were the non feminist.
@mandy with small m,
I agree with your 1:12pm comment above to respect biological differences between the gender. No arguement there. However, how exactly, do you know what is biological vrs. social construct? Prior to feminist politics, there were gender role differences NOT underpined by biology. With women entering more dimensions of our society , we’ve learned that they function well and belong there.
Eg.: We’ve learned that women physicians belong in medicine and are preferencially sought out OB/GYN and pediatrics. If you’ve chosen a woman OB/GYN or taken your kids to a woman pediatrician, thank the feminists. If your ER doc suspected your spouse abuse based upon your hair style and body language, thank the feminists.
We’ve learned that women have natural political skills. If your female school board member advocated school hours to fit student sleep patterns, thank the feminists. If your city council women noticed dangerous traffic patterns around the city pool, thank the feminists.
If your mother was not left destitute at age 50, when your father divorced her for a 25 year old, thank the feminists.
You advocate that we respect biological differences between the genders, BUT you have no knowledge of which of those differences are real and which are socially engineered. How do we discover true differences?
“With women entering more dimensions of our society , we’ve learned that they function well and belong there.”
I’ve not experienced this. I’ve experienced a lot of delusional women in positions where a man would better serve.
. However, how exactly, do you know what is biological vrs. social construct? Prior to feminist politics, there were gender role differences NOT underpined by biology.
NO system is perfect but there has been no reciprocity on the part of women to take part in the dirty work of society building. There is no inclination that feminists want women anywhere other than in the powerful, desirable offices. With men, for every Doctor there are several thousand garbage collectors as well. That is largely not true with women.
We’ve learned that women have natural political skills. If your female school board member advocated school hours to fit student sleep patterns, thank the feminists. If your city council women noticed dangerous traffic patterns around the city pool, thank the feminists.
You prove my point!!! Women in politics = bigger nanny state government. The state should not even be in the business of education in the first place, a topic for another day.
“If your mother was not left destitute at age 50, when your father divorced her for a 25 year old, thank the feminists. “
histrionic scare tactics – First, it was extremely unlikely before no fault divorce when “men could do that.” The divorce rate was only 5%. Leaving an old wife for a younger woman happened only rarely. Second men used to face social shunning and shaming for abandoning their families. Other men were not patting him on the back “atta boy!” style.
How do we discover true differences?
Common sense?
Sorry, forgot to say I changed my name because I like Gunslingers’ suggestion
mandy of the new name
How about I’m Mandy Fly Me?
I missed this gem:
Double Yikes! The last thing I want is someone throwing my husband in jail because they think he “abused” me. Thank the feminists that strangers can throw kids’ dad in prison on a mere suspicion.
Not good for men, women, children or society as a whole when other people nose around and think they know what is best for everyone else based on superficial evidence.
Like I said mandy the bitches (feminists) nightmare. Tore up lady rain now tears up anony. On a roll.
mandy small m
OOPs that should be rocks, not racks!
mmmmmmmmh…blonds….
yummmy
mandy been here a while has simply lived more life than some others, and/or is more clear seeing.
I mean, anony, I think it’s great that there are female pediatricians and OB/GYNs. I think it’s fine for women to pursue whatever they wish. But I do not think it’s fine to denigrate men, masculinity, fatherhood, family, marriage, monogamy and to call into question the entire edifice of our Western civilization because some women wanted to get laid as and when they wanted.
Kamal & Mandy,
Going back to the “Crone” issue:
Yea, I really do think we’ve lost a lot on that score, and have lost all perspective. Like I said in a previous post, my GGM sat my Mom for a talk the night before she got married to my Dad; they had a very brief courtship. He was from the South, while my Mom was from the North; he was in his mid 30s; my Mom was 19. And my Mom was just starting out on a career as a nurse.
My GGM told my Mom straight up, you need a father for your son, which was me. I was about 6 months old at the time, and my GGM also told my Mom that she had to carefully consider her options. She understood that it would be hard for a singlemom to raise a son on her own, and, that the older both of us got, the harder it would be to get a hubbie of any consequence. Sure, my Mom could have made a nice living as a nursin professional, but as we all know, it takes more than money to raise a son.
Today, we don’t even hear that anymore: “you need a father for your son”. And keep in mind, this change has occured within my lifetime-only a scant 40 years. What a difference a few decades make.
Moreover, my GGM went over, in detail, what used to be called “Wifely Duties”. She said that if my Mom didn’t learn how to service her new hubbie correctly he was bound to seek satisfaction eleswhere. Being a Whore in the bedroom made for a much happier marriage, and my GGM stressed the fact that my Mom didn’t have to like it. In fact, her words to my Mom was, “you will learn to love him”.
Again, note, those words aren’t even a part of the lexicon anymore.
And this is another thing that is very important to remember-my GGM was no prude-she was brutally frank to my Mom about sex as a Wife. But she was also imparting the other important pieces of the Old Wisdom that, in my view, made for a better world. There is something to be said for these things, as well as discretion, modesty in public, and so on. And here is where I side w/Kamal, and hey, maybe there is some truth to the notion that Brothas give Women a wider berth on the age thing, but I don’t have any axes to grind against more mature ladies either, nor am I against any of them having a full sex life. Truth be told there quite a few Women around in their 40s and even 50s who still like a bit of Rumpy Bumpy, lol. But the difference then as opposed to now, was that the ladies one, were more discreet about their bedroom antics, and two, didn’t attempt to look like the younger gals in their 20s. They dressed, and acted, in an age appropriate manner. Nowadays the scene has changed and is there for even the most casual observer to see.
Sure, there are many factors at work here, there usually are at any given time. But I still place most of the blame at the feet of modern day Feminism, which held that Women nor longer had to be married, chaste or even acted as if they were discreet either. They might have been contrivances, but they were meaningful and purposeful ones. And people like me directly benefitted from all that old hat stuff.
O
Well yea families lived together in close proximity you had multiple generations of family. Now they are spread all over the place.
You know that mythical thing that sometimes a woman had to give up for her man in the old days. That thing that people had to move 500 miles for a promotion for.
“””””””””Career”””””””””
@mandy with small m
–”I’ve not experienced this”…………we should base our gender roles on mandy’s personal experiences??
–”dirty work”…………….women have chosen to work as police officers, electricians, construction, and changing diapers.
–”only 5%”……………..for your destitute 5% affected, it was 100%. 5% of women destitute from the family treasury is OK with you?
–”histrionic scare tactic”……………it wasn’t a scare tactic. it was a diagnosis.
–”common sense”………….you are avoiding the question. again, we should base gender policy on mandy’s wisdom?
the pattern of your responses sound like privilege and avoidance. you’re stating, “mandy enjoys privilege, and would prefer to lock other women out of their potentials.”
We’ve learned that women physicians belong in medicine and are preferencially sought out OB/GYN and pediatrics. If you’ve chosen a woman OB/GYN or taken your kids to a woman pediatrician, thank the feminists.
If you can’t find an expert surgeon because women want to be pediatricians and OB/GYNs, not surgeons, but they get half the med school slots anyway… thank the feminists.
@nova,
But I do not think it’s fine to denigrate men, masculinity, fatherhood, family, marriage, monogamy and to call into question the entire edifice of our Western civilization because some women wanted to get laid as and when they wanted.
I agree, nova. Let’s respect true biological gender differences. But what , exactly , are these? We weren’t respecting them prior to 1970s. Do we learn real vrs. artifice from brain MRIs? from trial and error? from “mandy’s wisdom”? from your wisdom?
In the past 40 years we’ve dispelled a lot of mythical thinking via trial and error.
anony
Not my wisdom by any means. But our ancestors. Go and read the history books like Camel and other wrote. You’ll see certain patterns in family/social/economic life lead to flourishing societies. And other patterns do not go very far.
Changing diapers does not compare to spending 12 hours a day in a coal mine. If my great grandmother ever had the audacity to complain to her coal miner husband about the drudgery of housework, I hoped he’d have slapped across the room. Some women need that sort of thing, you know.
@Tarl,
If you can’t find an expert surgeon because women want to be pediatricians and OB/GYNs, not surgeons, but they get half the med school slots anyway… thank the feminists.
Women easily earn their way into med school slots. that’s the easy part. juggling later is the hard part.
If you can’t find an expert surgeon, you just don’t know your way around; and many of them will be women.
Women easily earn their way into med school slots. that’s the easy part. juggling later is the hard part
This is the problem. Wouldn’t it be more sensible to offer those slots to equally deserving men who would be less likely to “juggle” and instead devote themselves to surgery full time, perfecting techniques, while their wives took care of the kids & house?
@mandy with a small mind,
I hoped he’d have slapped across the room. Some women need that sort of thing, you know.
don’t worry, mandy, You’ll receive competent compassionate care from female paramedic, er doc, and neurosurgeon, when you come in the hospital with your bashed brain.
If you can’t find an expert surgeon, you just don’t know your way around; and many of them will be women.
No they won’t. Only about 13% of all surgeons are women, and that’s unlikely to change, since women don’t like the lifestyle.
@ mandy with bashed brain,
Wouldn’t it be more sensible to offer those slots to equally deserving men who would be less likely to “juggle” and instead devote themselves to surgery full time, perfecting techniques, while their wives took care of the kids & house?
well, that’s not how the masses of patients see it . women docs in some specialties are highly sought after, including some of the misogynists here on this board who demand only female docs for their wife and kids.
My point isn’t to quibble over this stuff. The greater question: if we want to respect true biological differences , how do we truly discover that. ?
Your argument dissolves into mean-spirited, illogical, personal insults – enough with you.
You may not like me and wish ill on me, but unlike you harridan feminist friends I’m not afraid to tell you the truth.
It is really way to late to salvage Western Civ if the people causing the most damage are unwilling to even consider the effect of their actions on others.
Beats anony like a man since he happens to be one.
@mandy with bashed ego,
My questions are based on genuine desire to understand true vrs. artificial gender differences., nothing personal.
mandy’s sputs are based upon her privileges, hackneyed name calling and ad hominems. (harridan feminist???) get some new material.
Gunslinger, I promise I am really a woman!
I guess I can’t really prove it in this bizaaro world where human socialize without seeing anyone else’ face.
“In the past 40 years we’ve dispelled a lot of mythical thinking via trial and error.”
@anony –
The problem is that I do not see a way we can continue as a culture without increased rates of male parental investment, which requires an increased status for fathers — not just Obama wagging his finger while he passes increased child support enforcement legislation.
The trial and error experiment can only go on so long before the patient dies from experimentation. I genuinely think our society is not going to recover from this experimentation, because by this point there is no realistic hope of reconstructing the family and re-instituting fatherhood .. rather both are in fairly steep decline.
Yea that is why I beat anony he he he
I do believe you are in fact a woman.
My female coworker was the only one who actually took the soul of one of the harridans at work making problems for everyone. She removed her soul I believe there may have even been tears and the harridan went home. Same one that gave me the massage before I left for vacation he he he.
@mandy with the small m:
No, I don’t want children. I would not be a good mother. I’ve already made a promise to God on what I want to do with my life, and that’s to find a cure to RSD (not cancer like you assumed).
That being said, don’t you think it’s selfish that you were able to go to college, and attempt to balance a career and a family, but you’re advocating not allowing that privelidge to other women? Maybe you couldn’t handle it, but I’m sure other, more talented, intelligent, and gifted women can. Not everyone is meant to be great.
I’m sorry if I sounded just a little condescending there.
I know a dermatologist who was a valedictorian in high school, a summa cum laude and college, and started her family in college. She’s still an amazing doctor. I think ultimately, to make professional life and family life work, you need input from a FATHER. I remember my dad being with me in the evenings and my mom being with me in the mornings when I was young and they both worked. I see my mom now, at home, sick and suffering. She wants to go back to work, because being locked in four walls drives her insane. She’s a great mom, but she’s not meant to be just a housewife. I can see this in her.
I’m just throwing that out there.
I’ve also made my name more annoying. Just to avoid confusion.
Another thing, mandy, I know I’ve shown you some disrespect. I apologize. You are much older than I.
I do agree with you on reproduction being important, continuing the species being important, and therefore, the woman’s role of having children and child-rearing being important. I don’t like your almost bitter bashing of women in professional careers. Maybe I’m biased because a lot of what I’ve seen around me are middle-class Hispanic families with mama, abuela, abuelo, primo, tia, etc. living under one roof and caring for one another, making it easier for professional moms.
But for some reason, you keep coming across as a bitter woman who couldn’t do it all, and is therefore preventing other people from trying. :/
mandy:
This is the problem. Wouldn’t it be more sensible to offer those slots to equally deserving men who would be less likely to “juggle” and instead devote themselves to surgery full time, perfecting techniques, while their wives took care of the kids & house?
But what about women who don’t want to — or can’t — have children? For them there will be no juggling; they will also devote themselves to their discipline full-time. If they are as qualified as a man (legitimately, not by some sliding scale) will you penalise them solely because they’re not men?
Is it sensible, useful or fair to limit opportunities for the entire gender based on what only some of them might do?
@nova,
Totally agree that that our Western culture is out of balance and need more paternal involvement and input.
I think the solution is, as always, financial.
to stop the $$$$$$$ flow to single women.
I abhor the idea of mandatory paternity testing , but would be on board if it were linked to welfare payments. The welfare class girls/women are the greatest transgressors . We could make the gift of welfare money contingent upon identification of one’s baby daddy. Even the welfare girls take pride in knowing who their baby daddy be. They shame the girls who don’t know who their baby daddy be. We must create orphanages as an option for girls who can’t id the daddy and be eligible for welfare money.
Via incrementalism, we shut down the flow of money to single mothers.
@Mandy –
There are tons of reports from women about how they can’t be happy doing it all.
There are a few options here, it seems to me. One is to not try to do it all (either go all home or all career, as you are opting for the latter). One is to try to juggle — and yes, some exceptional families do this well without getting divorced, but really … it’s not on managing two high powered careers, children and a h/w relationship. Something usually goes awry, typically the latter. There are exceptions, and men and women alike can try to be one of them, but for men at least the risk of that failing are disastrous.
@Marcus,
should we admonish men who juggle an intense career with golf, photography, training for marathons, or serving in the community?
What business is it what a person does outside their work?
Mandy!:D
thank you for researching RSD.
Naa woman will always have opportunities that cannot be stopped. What can be stopped is having a mandatory amount of slots for female doctors. Like the 40 percent mandatory woman on boards in norway now wtf kind of bs is this.
“Via incrementalism, we shut down the flow of money to single mothers.”
@anony –
In part, but that’s not enough, really. The scourge of divorce is as afflicting as is single motherhood by choice among the lower classes. It’s true that it is class-skewed now. That will change, due to the educational demographic tidal wave that is happening now. The rising generations of young women will simply not have enough mates (there will be about twice as many women with degrees as men). This will make single motherhood — or child-free-ness — normative. And that is something we can’t stop now, it’s too late to stop it, that train has left the station.
What we can do, however, is change family law. But that will require cooperation from women. Are you with us? Would you support a rebuttable presumption of shared custody upon divorce, something that would remove the overwhelming burden of child care on divorced moms and free them to pursue their careers (and other men)? Feminist organizations generally don’t support it, but I think some women may.
I think the most basic biological differences are obvious and yet need not be taken to extremes. Androgyny is no future. But an extreme venus/mars is no future either.
It is a colossal waste of resources to train women to be physicians when so many of them insist on taking lots of time off to bear and raise children (or drop out of practicing medicine altogether), and insist on the right to work part-time and with no on-call responsibilities.
“should we admonish men who juggle an intense career with golf, photography, training for marathons, or serving in the community?
What business is it what a person does outside their work?”
@anony –
Because without mothers there is no future. And without fathers, there is a future, but the future is bleak.
Obama is right that children need both fathers and mothers. That is the only sane way to look at a good future. So, yes, we must care about what people are juggling. But before we point fingers at men for being absent, we need to change laws that encourage women to disappear fathers from their children’s lives.
@nova,
-first of all, those degrees no longer translate into higher income because they are ubiquitous. The husband plumber, electrician, fireman will out earn many degreed wives.
-what is “rebuttable presumption of shared custody”? How would that work?
anony:
I was merely trying to understand how mandy would handle the prickly particulars that she was painting over with such a broad brush. I was not advocating her position.
No need for apologies Mandy.
That being said, don’t you think it’s selfish that you were able to go to college, and attempt to balance a career and a family, but you’re advocating not allowing that privelidge to other women?
It is not a ‘privilege’, trust me.
I’m saying these things because I’d like to go back in time and do some a few things differently.
It rips a mother’s heart out to not be near her babies when they need her. Something hormonal perhaps, it is definitely not social conditioning whatever the case and it is much worse than being denied a “Career.”
Anyhow, have you heard the expression “adults aren’t born they are raised.” If mom isn’t the one doing it, how will they turn out? Even if a woman desires a career more than childcare, she is doing her kids a disservice by not shaping the adults they will become herself. Isn’t that selfish?
If you have two breadwinners, with demanding careers in a marriage, how does the housework and cooking get done. There is something in a woman’s soul the longs to do these daily tasks for her family. You may not feel the stirring now, but perhaps if you get married even without children, you will understand the joy that comes from making your husband happy by taking care of little things.
I’m not actually in a position to deny anyone anything. I can just advise and comment on how I see things going. If I saw a blind man walking near a cliff, I’d call out to him even though he may be offended I noticed he could not see the cliff. Maybe Cassandra would have been a better name for me?
No one can be great at everything and that is why humans have delegated tasks suited for men and women. This system lasts because it works for most people. Any woman who could successfully juggle a happy marriage, demanding job and babies is a rare bird indeed. She would have to escape form the desires, emotions and motivations God (or nature if you like) has bestowed upon her as a woman first.
I still do not understand why anyone, let alone young women, view being a wage slave as a wonderful aspiration.
Are you familiar with the Chinese concept of Yin(mas) and Yang (fem)? We as a society are at a point of extreme Yang. We will bounce back as human’s always do. The question is, will it be a Yin of barbarism or patriarchal civilization?
This is not my choice it just is. History shows this will happen to us as to the Romans and all others come before us.
@Tarl,
re” waste of resources” What do you care what a woman does with her tuition money, her time, and her energy?
Raising kids takes only 15-20 years. A woman’s working life is 40 years. Why is it your concern if she works part time or no time? Do you admonish men who work part time?
It is a colossal waste of resources to train women to be physicians when so many of them insist on taking lots of time off to bear and raise children (or drop out of practicing medicine altogether), and insist on the right to work part-time and with no on-call responsibilities.
It is a colossal waste of resources to train only those women who drop out. What about those who don’t?
@novaseeker:
The thing is, and my father made this point once, people get married knowing what their spouse does, or what their future goals are. People with incompatible lifestyles get married. There are women who get angry because their husband works all day trying to support their stay-at-home lifestyle. There are men who get frustrated with their wives who spend all their time on the children and not enough time with them. (apparently children can split apart a relationship as easily as they can strengthen one).
People are weird. Put people together, and sometimes you get too much weirdness.
I also think the type of careers/jobs make a difference. Some of the succesful professional married couples I’ve seen don’t work on weekends, or don’t work the evenings, or don’t have crazy hours, or don’t have to take work home.
Either way, I don’t think that type of lifestyle is for everyone. There are some people that really can just do it all, and work together, and make things work. And some of them have always been like that. There are some people that can’t. I’m considering the possiblity of sacrificing having children, mainly because the thought of pregnancy and child-rearing terrifies me. It’s just so…permanent. Then again, I’m young and immature.
But I do agree that sometimes sacrifices will have to be made. It’s just a matter of whether those sacrifices are really worth it in the long run.
@anony:
I haven’t started researching it yet, don’t get ahead of yourself. I do have a long road to go, but I am starting soon (hopefully).
“-what is “rebuttable presumption of shared custody”? How would that work?”
Meaning the presumed arrangement on divorce is for the children to stay in the marital residence, for parents to share weeks in the residence, and child support to be determined based on actual need, with the % upkeep of the residence and related costs determined based on income share. That could be “rebutted” if the court finds abuse addiction or other disqualifying aspects of one or the other parent. This keeps kids in place, and provides the most stable and balanced arrangement financially and socially.
“-first of all, those degrees no longer translate into higher income because they are ubiquitous. The husband plumber, electrician, fireman will out earn many degreed wives.”
Do you really think many degreed women are going to be marrying plumbers? Maybe some on the lower ranks will, but I am very skeptical of the argument that “degrees don’t matter, men are dumber and are meant to not have degrees, while smarter women with degrees will still marry dumber men without degrees because they have trades”.
I haven’t seen much of that. But, I run in circles with very high status degreed women (Ivies and equivalent with advanced degrees).
Naa man if a woman wants to be a doctor be a doctor. Don’t say she is going to be a doctor because she is a woman and have a qouta you have to fill.
Could we preemptively tax single (divorced and never marrieds) based upon the stats that their children become societal problems?
@guns,
there are no quotas. there never have been.
were are you getting that silliness?
What do you care what a woman does with her tuition money, her time, and her energy?
It’s not the woman’s resources that are being wasted – it is the time, energy, and money it takes to train the woman. The system that trains doctors enjoys ample taxpayer support, and thus every taxpayer has a right to be concerned about the results this system produces.
Why is it your concern if she works part time or no time? Do you admonish men who work part time?
A shortage of doctors will drive up the cost of health care for everybody (duuh!). If all the doctors in the country work half time, then we need to have twice as many doctors to achieve the same level of care, or some people just don’t get treated (a fact which would concern anyone who expected to need medical care). An oversupply of women in certain specialties, and a shortage of doctors in specialties women don’t like, should concern everyone.
If male doctors had the same entitled attitude as the female ones, yes I would admonish them too.
@Gunslinger:
Agreed.
I want to know I got somewhere because I worked hard and deserved it, not because I was just another number of the lot.
@anony:
From my understanding, other countries might have quotas.
The main quotas I see in the US surround affirmative action.
“I’m considering the possiblity of sacrificing having children, mainly because the thought of pregnancy and child-rearing terrifies me. It’s just so…permanent. Then again, I’m young and immature.
But I do agree that sometimes sacrifices will have to be made. It’s just a matter of whether those sacrifices are really worth it in the long run.”
@Mandy –
This is your decision to make, and just for the record, I support that. No woman should be made to feel inadequate if she desires not to have kids.
But … I would caution you to take counsel from women in their 30s and 40s about that issue. Some of them had your perspective in their 20s, changed perspective in their 30s and ended up .. less than fulfilled, to be charitable. So just suss out what you really want sooner rather than later.
@nova,
I see __LOTS___ of degreed women with husbands in construction and the trades. routinely. I’ll brag that my nephew made $125,000 last year as a welder (with overtime).
@nova and all
the shared custody can only make sense in sense if the couple’s house was shared. You cannot break the link between who gets the couple’s home and who gets the children.
the idea of changing custodian laws sounds nice but is extremley utopian, since it depends on who ows the house. Keep in mind that after divorce the husband would be living in a flat, with his parents, with his buddies or in the much smaller place a worse neighbourhood.
and there is no way tochange the laws concerning who ows the couple’s home in favor of men unless divorce itself is made much harder, almost forbidden, like the Catholic Church and Henry VIII
“:I see __LOTS___ of degreed women with husbands in construction and the trades. routinely. I’ll brag that my nephew made $125,000 last year as a welder (with overtime).”
Maybe that is the future then. Women are the brains and men are the brawn. Who knows?
@nova,
I like the idea of shared custody in a single residence. Which parent would own it and pay for maintenance, repair, prop taxes? I like the idea of the children’s needs being the focus of the decisions.
@novaseeker:
I know. Luckily I have a few more years to make a decision on that.
@Tarl,
the # of docs affects access, but not cost.
Cost is determined by CMS policy. docs have no say in payment beyond # of pt. encounters.
“I like the idea of shared custody in a single residence. Which parent would own it and pay for maintenance, repair, prop taxes? I like the idea of the children’s needs being the focus of the decisions.”
@anony –
The residence could be either shared or owned by one or the other with each contributing to the cost of upkeep (which is what child support does now anyway).
Anony,
I’d deeply appreciate it if you went back to what I said about my Mom and Great Grandmother, and please tell me where you disagree?
Also: why should we focus only on welfare moms when it comes to MPT? Studies have shown that often it is married couples where cuckoldry has occured, thanks to hospital genetic screening tests to deal with a medical concern w/the kid and the daddy might be a donor, etc. Ooops, the genes don’t match. We can kill that noise right at the very beginning, by doing MPT as soon as the kid pops out. No muss, no fuss. MPT accross the board. Anything less is really coddling the dishonst and grossly selfish behavior of bad Women.
Please explain?
O
lol equal sports for one.
As we know from our local doctor folk certain slots for each minority group.
“””””””””””””””gig
@nova and all
the shared custody can only make sense in sense if the couple’s house was shared. You cannot break the link between who gets the couple’s home and who gets the children.
the idea of changing custodian laws sounds nice but is extremley utopian, since it depends on who ows the house. Keep in mind that after divorce the husband would be living in a flat, with his parents, with his buddies or in the much smaller place a worse neighbourhood.
and there is no way tochange the laws concerning who ows the couple’s home in favor of men unless divorce itself is made much harder, almost forbidden, like the Catholic Church and Henry VIII””””””””””””
House needs to be sold in divorce. But yea a lot of people probably don’t own a house when they divorce as well.
I thought that everybody would understand at once how unrealistic the idea of shared residence is
it is quite an oxymoron: a divorced couple with a shared home!
liberal policies make much more sense than people realize. if you allow divorce, mommy gets the home, there is no way to avoid it. If you deny mommy the house, you are effectively forbidding divorce.
@obsidian: Do you mean just a paternity test, or do you mean a full genetic screening?
The problem with genetic screenings is if they prove that a child has a 90% chance for developing, say, cancer, the insurance may choose not to cover the child or include it in a plan.
Which would really, really suck.
@Mandy!:D
I agree with “mandy been here a while” and nova that a woman’s desire to nurture children is strong and the single most rewarding lifetime experience for most men and women.
like nova said, suss that out sooner rather than later.
House needs to be sold in divorce. But yea a lot of people probably don’t own a house when they divorce as well.
now we got a realistic proposal.
@gig and guns,
true dat. many divorcing couples don’t own a home. they share a debt. single apartment , then?
“now we got a realistic proposal.”
House is often NOT sold in divorce. And if there are kids involved, house/apartment/town-home should be where the kids live. Either make the parents tenants in common, or award one the residence in title, but switch residence weekly, and share upkeep costs. This is the equitable way forward.
Mandy,
I’m not a geneticist, but from what I understand, in the hospital, they can tell pretty quick if the kid and the daddy’s genes don’t match in any way, ie, HE AINT THE DADDY. & this aint a welfare thing, this is a marital thing. I’m saying, why restrict MPT to just welfare moms? I say MPT accross the board, because Men have a right to know their kids are indeed their kids, and kids have a right to know who their true daddies are, to say nothing about a right to have their lives saved.
O
@obs,
another time. got to go.
“Mandy,
I’m not a geneticist”
@Obsidian, Mandy –
The paternity screen is very limited. That’s all we are asking for. A routine paternity screen (not a full genome screen), with the results recorded, and the testing material discarded.
No muss, no fuss. And much more justice for men.
Course in my real life. I don’t get a fucking divorce I am done with that shit. Anyway you get your woman some business to run that is not time consuming so she has plenty of time to take care of you and the kids. Don’t have her work a job that she has a boss. Asking for trouble in my book.
Nova,
Thanks, man. I think that the next step in the “reproductive rights movement” is on the Male side, w/Roe For Men and MPT. In fact, my view is that if we do these two things, the Pro Life movement is for all intents dead. And this from a Pro Lifer. There just simply won’t be a real case to be made against any of this, except on the most ideological of grounds. And that won’t appeal to many people, because at the end of the day people want to be able to fuck w/o having to worry that kids will automatically be involved. We have got to accept the fact that sex and children have been both medically and legally seperated now for at least a generation. What we don’t have yet is reproductive freedom for ALL.
Men need MPT and RFM. When that happens Balance will be restored to the Force.
O
@obsidian and novaseeker:
I agree, paternity tests should be done. And actually, even something as simple as eye scanning can determine if people are related or not. (though probably not as precise)
I know there have been talks in the UK about keeping a child’s DNA on record when it’s born. I don’t know how I feel about that, however.
Marcus A
It has nothing to with punishing anyone.
Going to medical school is not a right, very few men actually get to do it. Statistically, young women who go to med school are more likely to follow this pattern.
Which is better for society? To allow people more likely to actually do the needed work when needed or to allow people who “want” and “desire” to do this but are likely to want and desire something else in a few years?
@Gunslingergregi
“Beats anony like a man since he happens to be one.”
lol
“Men need MPT and RFM. When that happens Balance will be restored to the Force.”
@Obsidian –
Aye. Indeed, my brother.
“I know there have been talks in the UK about keeping a child’s DNA on record when it’s born. I don’t know how I feel about that, however.”
@Mandy –
That we should resist. It’s not needed, and it also helps to confuse the issue about MPT.
Which is better for society? To allow people more likely to actually do the needed work when needed or to allow people who “want” and “desire” to do this but are likely to want and desire something else in a few years?
So again: you are going to throw a portion of society under the bus to accomplish this “betterment” for the rest? All medically-inclined women are to be banished from pursuing that line of work simply because some couldn’t hack it?
Some men also change their minds and bail on their medical training. By your reasoning, should all men be barred from pursuing it, simply because some of them changed their minds?
The betterment of society does not involve unilaterally decreeing lifeplans based on sex. I’m not saying society’s betterment isn’t a noble, necessary goal, but the “women should be about procreation; those who aren’t will just have to take one for the team” theory is neither realistic nor an improvement.
So again: you are going to throw a portion of society under the bus to accomplish this “betterment” for the rest? All medically-inclined women are to be banished from pursuing that line of work simply because some couldn’t hack it?
Some men also change their minds and bail on their medical training. By your reasoning, should all men be barred from pursuing it, simply because some of them changed their minds?
Better solution:
When students are accepted to medical training, they sign a contract guaranteeing that they will practice medicine FULL-TIME for the equivalent of at least 20 years – or, if they work part-time, for the equivalent of 20 years (i.e., 40 years of half-time practice).
If they break the contract, then THEY are responsible for the education and training costs of their replacement(s).
These costs are on a sliding scale, pro-rated. IE if they work 10 years, they pay half the cost of educating and training their replacements.
It’s the perfect solution. Gender blind, race blind. Selects for doctors who actually want to be, and stay, doctors.
@epoxy- depends on which kinds of doctors. many are in oversupply, some specializations in acute shortage. the incentives have been skewed in recent years toward those fields with shorter hours and high pay (anesthesiogoists, for example) and lower malpractice risk. that good idea could be extended to try to rectify these imbalances.
Maurice,
Yes. That was my first-order approximation; I didn’t want to expound needlessly on such details.
Pay scales should also be adjusted so that less “glamorous” medical specialties are compensated accordingly. Just as garbage men are paid more than many other workers of similar skill and training, due to the inherent unpleasantness of their work, so the “garbage men of doctors” – such as, say, urologists – should get a pay boost over doctors in less viscerally repulsive specialties.
MA,
I think we need to be reasonable here. I don’t think anyone here is for restricting Women in working or pursuing whatever, but there is something to be said for reduced productivity, among a great many things, by Women workers having to take time off due to kids etc. Am I saying we should shut them out?-not necessarily. But at some point, at a time when there are more Women than Men in the workforce, that this reality is something we’re gonna have to face-can we really hope to compete on a world scale, to say nothing of maintaining the standard of living we’ve come to enjoy for more than half a century, when some 80% of all layoffs have been Male, and the remainder of the workforce turns in a reduced performance? Sure, *you* may not have kids nor want any, but Women like you are in the distinct minority. Most Women *want* babies, which means at least taking some time off to have em, and time off here and there for the foreseeable future. Meanwhile businesses have to be run.
I’m not talking outta the side of my neck here, MA. I know what its kike to sacrifice many things because I wanted to simply put, make more money. Its a documented fact that Women aren’t willing to relocate, work as many hours/wkends, and God knows aren’t willing to do America’s “dirty jobs” as much s Men are. And trust me, for most guys, it ain’t about making a sociopolitical statement, “finding oneself” or breaking whatever the flavor of the month’s ceiling. It is simply about keeping the lights on and food on the table.
The.
End.
So, what are we to do? I think the “pledge” idea that’s been proposed is something we should think about, afterall, we already have stuff like that in the military, etc. But at the end of the day, Women themselves must decide what is more important, being a mommy or being a productive member of the workforce. Personally, I think Women should get their babies and raise em early, leaving time to pursue other things later in life. In this way, Women *can* have it all. They just have to learn to do it they way we Men do things:
One thing at a time.
O
Obsidian:
I know what its kike to sacrifice many things because I wanted to simply put, make more money.
Freudian Typo! “Kike” and “make more money” in the same sentence. Hilarious. Awesome.
Personally, I think Women should get their babies and raise em early, leaving time to pursue other things later in life. In this way, Women *can* have it all. They just have to learn to do it they way we Men do things:
One thing at a time.
Beautiful.
And beautifully said.
lol epox
not that I am anti-semetic
Yep. Like we did.
Using the 20s to fuck alphas repeatedly is sad, sad, sad.
E87,
Alright, you got me. Didn’t even see it I was typing so darned fast. My bad to all my Jewish Brothers.
O
@ep 87- So doctors should pay for own education as well as the education of another doctor should they decide to leave the profession? That’s about 300-400k. Something tells me we will have far fewer doctors of either gender.
Using the 20s to fuck alphas repeatedly is sad, sad, sad.
Unless they’re married to one of those alphas. Like old-school marriage 1.0 style.
8-10 year age difference.
Then it’s not sad.
The more repeatedly, the less sad.
@ep 87- So doctors should pay for own education as well as the education of another doctor should they decide to leave the profession?
That’s the idea.
Hemorrhages, whether of blood or of personnel, need to be tourniquetted.
That’s about 300-400k. Something tells me we will have far fewer doctors of either gender.
Maybe.
Number one, I don’t think this is as likely as you suggest. Medicine is prestigious.
Number two, we may have fewer doctors – because the part-time numbers would drop – but we’d have more experienced, long-term physicians. And that is exactly what we need.
We would, however, have to be vigilant against socialized medicine and its attendant tendency to turn doctors into glorified low-wage government workers.
I.e., if doctors were “locked in” as I propose, then unscrupulous lawmakers might try to cut budgets** by lowering doctors’ pay to near pittance levels, confident that those doctors won’t leave the profession. We need to make sure that wouldn’t happen.
–
**Something that could EASILY be done by eliminating waste, such as “commissions on women”. But I digress.
“Unless they’re married to one of those alphas. Like old-school marriage 1.0 style.
8-10 year age difference.
Then it’s not sad.”
Yeah but you know that’s not what I was talking about.
Yeah but you know that’s not what I was talking about.
No worries NS, we’re on the same page, socially and politically, at least from what I’ve read of your writing.
Why “novaseeker”? Are you, like me, the grown-up version of a kid who once lay out on the dewy grass, staring in wonder at the stars and fascinated by astronomical phenomena?
Or do you just want to see this imperfect blown to bits in a blaze of supernova glory?
@ Epoxytocin No. 87
“Unless they’re married to one of those alphas. Like old-school marriage 1.0 style.”
Silly boy, alphas don’t get married. At least, not according to A.J. Travis.
Silly boy, alphas don’t get married.
What about alphas who want ginormous families and so need to get started on that?
Silly boy, alphas don’t get married. At least, not according to A.J. Travis.
Not without prenups.
“Why “novaseeker”? Are you, like me, the grown-up version of a kid who once lay out on the dewy grass, staring in wonder at the stars and fascinated by astronomical phenomena?
Or do you just want to see this imperfect blown to bits in a blaze of supernova glory?”
@Epoxy –
Well, the moniker has been mine since 2002 or so.
It’s Northern Virginia and then seeker of truth, hence my AV.
But I should come up with a better story for it
@ Epoxytocin No. 87
“What about alphas who want ginormous families and so need to get started on that?”
Well, why aren’t you married yet…
I just want to know why novaseeker has not tried the apocalypse opener and got back to us yet?
“I just want to know why novaseeker has not tried the apocalypse opener and got back to us yet?”
Novaseeker has a GF, and is doing quite well with her.
Anoy covering her tracks I abhor the idea of mandatory paternity testing
*gives anony the side eye*
I wonder why?
Anony but would be on board if it were linked to welfare payments. The welfare class girls/women are the greatest transgressors
Good middle class girls like you would never think of getting knocked up with Mr. Big’s baby and passing it off as Adien’s kid huh.
Anoy you are so full of it. I didn’t attack you when you were so anti MPT because I’m not big on cat fights but figured something was up with you.
Anony being an annoying a-hole who their baby daddy be. They shame the girls who don’t know who their baby daddy be.
Yea, the lower class girls shame their friends who can’t name the father of the children because they realize that it’s wrong to steel from a honest hardworking man. Your fat frappacino quasi feminist friends “who don’t know who their baby daddy be” sit around combing through their law school textbooks looking for ways to screw the beta dad over for child support and alimony payments.
Most of the money you dumpster diving dingbat but “oh so middle class” types receive is squandered of booz, bad breast implants, botox, and douchebag alphas who see you as an atm machine via your beta provider.
Here’s a hint, if you need to put one of the most toxic poisons on the face of the earth into your face to look halfway decent, your time for clubs is over.
*sigh*
Oh anoy you show your true colors in that second bit with “who their daddy be”. It’s funny how people see what they want to see isn’t. You wrote “those welfare girls” and by your choice of words I take it blk welfare girls are alone in having children whose father they can’t point out in a crowd of men.
Anony, do you really watch the Maury show??? Have you not noticed who the skankyist of all Maury show women are? Here is a hint… they don’t look like me. There are far fewer sisters that bring a guy on along with his best friend, brother, father, uncle and cousin. You should take some time and go through the clips on youtube. If anyone should be throwing shade, it should be lil grl. When is the last time you saw a woman who looks like her on TV degrading herself for all the world to see. Maybe the beta losers are on to something after all.
P.S. It isn’t because they are doormats or built like little boys as your feminist friends would have you believe.
P.P.S. I have a lot more respect for people like Willard and Marc from the Ark who just come right out and say what’s on their mind. You call yourself a feminist, well act one(anoy 5:09 pm), don’t run off things get hot. You want to act like a man but you can’t handle the presure like one.
I described your type in my Lucy vs. Snoopy write up. Default, please link.
ok that is the reason you need to let her watch he he he
Really though good job. Interesting how the debate is changing from not being able to get woman to not being able to go distance. That will change too. Game owns.
anony here is another one for you… Even the mom’s boyfriend isn’t off limits. I bet you’ll come up with a ton of excuses for these two huh???
*throws miracle bra into flames*
*yells at the top of my voice*
It’s fault of the Patriarchy’s fault
————————————
P.S. I won’t turn this into a race thread. I’m done.
chic noir be so arrogant
posting her baby daddy home videos here
this is all much too highbrow for me
buhbye
chic noir
I was going to give thumbs up on a good post. Then I saw this:
I described your type in my Lucy vs. Snoopy write up. Default, please link.
I did enjoy those posts.
Do you know the thread because I don’t?
Chic Noir,
Right On Sista! Right On.
And, I heeeeard that…
O
“ok that is the reason you need to let her watch he he he”
Yep. Oh yep.
@default- I think it was posted under the Mac computer thread. Or maybe a post or two before.
*when was the*
sorry
there are many more
but
you get the gist of my argument.
chic noir
I am going to ignore Whiskey’s point that a man should never help a woman with tech stuff…
They were in:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/05/10/three-macbooks/
Several all under chic noir
First is
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/05/10/three-macbooks/#comment-78309
More chic Peanuts deconstruction at:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/05/10/three-macbooks/#comment-78249
chic link
[Comment above in moderation]
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/05/10/three-macbooks/#comment-78309
@mandy with small m:
“It has nothing to with punishing anyone.
Going to medical school is not a right, very few men actually get to do it. Statistically, young women who go to med school are more likely to follow this pattern.
Which is better for society? To allow people more likely to actually do the needed work when needed or to allow people who “want” and “desire” to do this but are likely to want and desire something else in a few years?”
So what do you suggest? You know, there’s this great government in Cuba, you may have heard of it’s dictator. I think his name just might be Castro. Yeah, the country’s great. High productivity, people ALWAYS get enough to eat. FABULOUS healthcare.
Of course, no one can study what they want to study. But you know, it’s all good, right?
………
……
yeah.
@obsidian:
“Personally, I think Women should get their babies and raise em early, leaving time to pursue other things later in life. In this way, Women *can* have it all. They just have to learn to do it they way we Men do things:
One thing at a time.”
Exactly. One thing at a time. That’s why so many fathers don’t work. Oh wait. They do.
Ok, all snide remarks aside (I’m sorry if I’ve offended anyone, I don’t know what’s gotten into me today) :
How practical is that?
Say a woman decides to wait eighteen years before returning to her studies. Chances are, she won’t be able to go back to college. If she wants to go to a research university, well, that’s more difficult. Where will she get the money? The scholarships? Furthermore, it will be harder to continue studying, say, science and mathematics after all those years because those are the first things that are lost as one ages. Studying when you’re young is so much easier than studying when you’re middle-aged.
Also, once one becomes a parent, one never stops being a parent. Those bonds don’t magically disappear when a child turns 18.
A lot of girls that I know aren’t even mature enough to become parents. The other day one of my friends was telling me how she wanted to have a kid “because kids are so cute!” Well, yeah. They are cute. But I don’t think she’ll be saying that during childbirth. Or when she has to change diapers. Or when her child is sick with a 104 degree fever. It’s not easy. A child isn’t an accessory.
Personally, I think Women should get their babies and raise em early, leaving time to pursue other things later in life.
The problem is that a woman who drops out of the workforce at 25 and returns at 35 is basically useless, and too old, tired, and distracted to do anything remotely worth bragging about. Plus, doesn’t IQ decline after one’s twenties?
Using the 20s to fuck alphas repeatedly is sad, sad, sad.
It makes sense. Why waste your youth on beta males when you can fuck alphas, and when you and beta have finally made enough money to buy a house, you can marry him, and he can select based on your downward declining beauty which forces selection based on emotional compatibility, and less on physical characteristics.
In other words, twenty years of awful beta sex versus ten years of great alpha sex and ten years of pity beta sex.
Here’s a hint, if you need to put one of the most toxic poisons on the face of the earth into your face to look halfway decent, your time for clubs is over.
I must admit, even if I have a 0% chance of getting laid in the next 100 years, it’s still nice to have older women spend lots of money on beauty products, treatments, and surgeries to chase alphas. It’s much better than having a bunch of older, uglier, dowdy looking married women around…
Childbirth is not a big deal. Kids head is about the same size as a fist right.
Ever see a female cat surrounded by doctor cats in the wild screaming in pain like on a sitcom.
The childbirth deathrates in the 1800s was, at one point, as high as 40%. (for humans).
Thank goodness for doctors haha.
Supposedly it’s one of the most painful almost everyone (female) goes through. My brother (not female) had to get an appendectomy and the doctors told him that his appendix exploding was only second to childbirth in the degree of pain. Dang.
Dave Alex,
But why are you so concerned about said frumpy married Women anyway? You’re not gettin married, right? And I for one don’t even think about that kind of stuff. What’s it to you? What gives?
As for the whole Women chasing Alphas thing, hey I say more power to em. I just don’t wanna hear they bitching and moaning about there not being any good Men around, blah blah, etc. They made a choice now they gotta deal w/the consequences. Simple as that.
As for Beta guys getting some used up harridan, no thanks. Although I don’t consider myse a Beta in that sense at least, even if I was there’s no way in hell I’m coming within ten feet of such a Woman for anything, let alone marriage.
And Botox? YUCK!
O
@Mandy D- I’ve said the best thing for families is an extended family model too. It got mixed reviews here.
If my great grandmother ever had the audacity to complain to her coal miner husband about the drudgery of housework,
Well most likely, your daughter will complain to her accountant husband who chases numbers across a screen all day. His eyes and fingers may tingle a bit but not much else.
btw, mandy I’ve read a little about coal miner and their life wasn’t easy so I’m trivalizing your grand father’s line of work.
Funny enough, most men who find themselves having to watch their children for a day or two remark that it’s more work than they could have imagined.
Mandy been here a while I hoped he’d have slapped across the room. Some women need that sort of thing, you know
Mandy been here, I refuse to believe you really think this way. SMH I can’t.
*reaches for inhaler*
Mandy been here a while Not my wisdom by any means. But our ancestors. Go and read the history books like Camel and other wrote. You’ll see certain patterns in family/social/economic life lead to flourishing societies.
MBHAW the general wisdom from around the word allows man could beat his wife for whatever reason. The extended family model is a popular pattern you see world wide.
Just as you regret working while raising your children, I can show you women who think they destroyed/wasted their lives by having children.
In life, we must make decisions; things don’t always work out the way we would imagine. As adults, we must more often than not, suck it up and move on.
“”””””””””Funny enough, most men who find themselves having to watch their children for a day or two remark that it’s more work than they could have imagined. “””””””””””
That is babies chic babies not once they get a couple years under them. This is what people always push. Now they do need monitoring but babies yea crazy amount of attention needed.
Double Yikes! The last thing I want is someone throwing my husband in jail because they think he “abused” me.
l what if you went to the ER looking like Sloth from the Goonies?
histrionic scare tactics – First, it was extremely unlikely before no fault divorce when “men could do that.” The divorce rate was only 5%.
Sometimes a spouse just up and leaves without a divorce. Either way, a woman with small children no money and on her own is in serious trouble
Well said, Chic. In the end, that’s what its all about.
O
Now taking care of there man yea that can be an all day thing every day. Lot of work.
“””””””””””””””Mandy!
The childbirth deathrates in the 1800s was, at one point, as high as 40%. (for humans). “””””””””””””””””””””””
Do you really believe this?
“Say a woman decides to wait eighteen years before returning to her studies. Chances are, she won’t be able to go back to college. If she wants to go to a research university, well, that’s more difficult. Where will she get the money? The scholarships? Furthermore, it will be harder to continue studying, say, science and mathematics after all those years because those are the first things that are lost as one ages. Studying when you’re young is so much easier than studying when you’re middle-aged.”
@Mandy –
So get your degrees, then marry, then have kids, and keep the toe in the pool until your late 30s and then run with the career.
That may not work in medicine. If that’s the case, then you’re fucked, frankly, unless you want to become a part time OB/GYN or pediatrician or something like that.
But most other careers … get your docs, get a toe in, get kids, and get traction in your late 30s.
Worked wonders for my ex-w. True story.
guns Ever see a female cat surrounded by doctor cats in the wild screaming in pain like on a sitcom.
you made me laugh out loud
Tarl If you can’t find an expert surgeon because women want to be pediatricians and OB/GYNs, not surgeons
I’m going to go out on a limb with this one and say that it’s perfectly reasonable for there to be more OB/GYNs since 51% of the population needs to see an OB/GYN once a year.
does anyone know off hand the percentage of people who must have some type of surgery in their lifetime. I can imagine that it should be less than 1 in 5.
Before I forget, OB/GYNs(there are stats for this) are becoming fewer in number because their insurance is very expensive because of malpractice lawsuits.
funfact: some surgeons move over to cosmetic surgery because the pay is better. The pay for run of the mill types of surgery is far less than what doctors can command for plastic surgery. Insurance companies are very picky when it comes to what they are willing to pay for.
@novaseeker:
I, personally, am an adrenaline junky and a multitasker. The only way I can do something well is if I have ten other things to do with it. The more obligations I have, the better. It makes me more organized, more focused, and I utilize my time better. It’s a motivator.
Now, of course, there is a point where too many obligations will kill me. But I know my limits. Hopefully.
I think it all winds down to people doing what they think is best for themselves and what works for them. I have an idea of what I want to do with my life, but that idea can take several twists and turns, and my decisions may change with it. Who knows, maybe you’ll see me on t.v. in the future for having 16 kids or something.
I don’t want to be a doctor, though. I do want to do research. As of now I’m debating whether I should do an MD/PhD or if I should just go to grad school and study neuroscience. I have some time to decide that too luckily.
@chic:
Yeah, I honestly think extended family is the best. America isn’t that family-oriented at all, unfortunately.
@gunslingergregi:
Yes, I do believe it. Childbirth was one of the most dangerous things a woman could do at one point. Now it’s just normal. I think you should also note that there’s a huge difference between the body structure of a cat (or any other four legged animal) and a bipedal human being.
Obsidian
Well said, Chic. In the end, that’s what its all about.
*takes bow before Mu and Default*
thank you
I love you all
”””””Novaseeker,
get your docs, get a toe in, get kids, and get traction in your late 30s.”””””””
chic
There would prob be less problems with having the kids if they would follow novas advice and get a toe in.
@chic and obs,
I left for a scheduled bike ride, not because the topic was hot. I’m just calling it as I see it ………in the real world.
First off, your name calling “feminist” “latte” “botox” blah blah is so off base its just silly. I work in the real world, not some Mauey show. I just call it like I see it. FACT: many of the girls from the projects don’t know who their baby daddy be. FACT: welfare is a gift from working people to unmarried single moms who will raise troubled children. FACT: 41% of all babies are born to single moms. This is not about race.
Its’ about an exchange of money. Why shouldn’t the taxpayer have a say in how it’s spent?
please dispense with the wild name calling and as hominems. you know nothing about me.
Mandy seriously everything you are told is not truth. If 40 percent of woman died in childbirth then how could we have the genetics from 80 percent of the woman born around and 40 percent of the mens. See how in life things don’t add up. Math is a good thing to use sometimes. Maybe 87 can help on this one.
or maybe even lurker could help he he he
I think lurker knows something about math maybe even a lot.
But why are you so concerned about said frumpy married Women anyway?
The idea is that we’ll have more pretty women in public.
So get your degrees, then marry, then have kids, and keep the toe in the pool until your late 30s and then run with the career.
The problem is that she’s still an inferior employee compared to her male and female counterparts who were working full-time during this time.
@Mandy!:D,
re: md/phd Don’t spend your time and money on a MD if you want to do research. that’s for people with discretionary time and money.
What shit I didn’t know anything about comp work when I started at the tender age of 29 now I am one of the best. Now I just need to go learn some more programming and I will be the best.
Ep 87
Maybe.
Number one, I don’t think this is as likely as you suggest. Medicine is prestigious
Ep, 300-400k is a lot of money. You’re risking a mortgage or two.
EP Number two, we may have fewer doctors – because the part-time numbers would drop – but we’d have more experienced, long-term physicians. And that is exactly what we need.
but what are we to do when those experienced long-term physicians want to retire. IIRC, we are sorta facing a similar problem with air traffic controllers.
EP 87We would, however, have to be vigilant against socialized medicine and its attendant tendency to turn doctors into glorified low-wage government workers.
I.e., if doctors were “locked in” as I propose, then unscrupulous lawmakers might try to cut budgets** by lowering doctors’ pay to near pittance levels, confident that those doctors won’t leave the profession. We need to make sure that wouldn’t happen
You made a number of good points here. I’m actually for universal healthcare but there are so many ways that it can be troublesome if not executed properly. I’m not writing about long doctor waits. My biggest issue is with doctor’s wages decreasing significantly.
Doctors go to medical school free of charge in France so they don’t carry the debt that the average American doctor does. Money won’t be as big an issue for a French doctor since he can survive on his pay.
BTW, I think American students who do well in some areas like those that we open for HB1 visas, should go to school on full scholarship.
@gunslinger
The mother’s dying during childbirht doesn’t necessarily indicate that the child died as well.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/72/1/241S
This talks about data from the later 1800s.
And I misquoted the 40% statistic. It was around 40% by hospital, but it still climbed. However, this climb had to do with a fever, and the fact that the doctors didn’t wash their hands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_mortality_rates_of_puerperal_fever
Ok, gunslinger, I replied to your comment with links and stuff, but it’s awaiting moderation.
You were right about the 40%, that was only certain hospitals. I thought 40% in America. Fail.
Either way, it still is a dangerous endeavor that men don’t have to worry about.
And also, what you said before about genetics; even if the mother dies, the child might still live. Just sayin’.
(When it says that a comment is awaiting moderation, does it mean that I might be banned?)
Gunslingergregi
I do not know if it is correct or not, but that number could be true.
If the risk of death during child birth was higher and women had more children then a high percentage of women could have died in child birth.
It does not have to be the first child it could be the seventh child. Even if it was the first child, he would likely have survived leaving her with one successor. More likely was she died after already giving birth to several other children.
<a href=”http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/06/21/quotes-of-the-Mandy!
Moderation can be caused by:
3 or more links
certain words (Including I believe: o m e g a and d e l e t e d)
other stuff that migh look like spam or a hack
Mandy!
See above. Either I messed up the link or your name (which creates a smiley when spelled out) messed it up.
Your name if typed in a reply gives this Mandy!
Thanks for making life difficult
”””””””You were right about the 40%, that was only certain hospitals. I thought 40% in America. Fail.
Either way, it still is a dangerous endeavor that men don’t have to worry about. ”””””””””””’
it is a natural endeaver that has happened ever since the first woman popped a baby out.
Why do you think people would want you to think different?
Of course it’s natural, but it doesn’t mean that it’s 100% safe. (even though nowadays it practically is) And it’s still painful. Ask any woman and she’ll tell you that.
Also, snake bites are natural and some of them can kill you.
And don’t give me that all reproduction is natural and safe. Snow leopards kill each other during sex sometimes. Seriously. (Although, for humans, dying during sex is a joke. xD)
Nature doesn’t always make sense. Yes, you were supposed to laugh at some of this.
HAHA Default User
Way to copy me.
xD
I told you, I changed my name to automatically make myself more annoying than I already am.
FYI,
The current four most common causes of death in pregnancy:
1. auto accidents
2 homicide
3. suicide
4. blood clots
In the United States?
Anony,
I for one don’t have any problem in the least w/your activities. In no way did I suggest you were “running off”.
Second, I find it interesting for you to take issue what you see as Ad Hom, given your documented penchant for doing the very same thing to others, including this very thread. Pot, meet Anony.
Third, I’ve mentioned the book before, but it bears repeating: Promises I Can Keep. Its by two Women sociologists out of, if I recally, St. Joe’s U here in Philly. They studied low income White, Black and Hispanic Women here and in Camden NJ. I had occasion to speak w/both authors about the book, and I do not recall them saying the Women in the book didn’t know how their baby daddies are.
But even if they didn’t, and you were right, its a red herring. No one is against identifying the daddies-in fact Anony, since you’re familiar with the way the real world works, surely you are aware of the fact that in order for a Woman to get assistance by the state, she must identify the father, and if paternity is i n doubt, the daddy test is administered. But of course, you knew that.
The issue, again, is that there are Men in this and other Western sociieties, who are being gypped, duped, flatout lied to about who they think is their flesh and blood. And for all the feminists’ mean talk about “reproductive choice” these Men don’t get to choose, not even to know if the kid that’s been assigned them are in fact, theirs.
Moreover, you refuse to speak to the fact that in hospitals everyday, doctors know that there are daddies who really aint the daddy, and the kid’s life hangs in the balance. Please don’t take my word for it Anony, a quick Google will present you with the facts. Not only is Paternity Fraud morally wrong, it also potentially puts the child at medical risk.
MPT would solve all these problems. Because in the realworld, there are people, both putative dads, and most of all innocent kids, being lied to.
Trust me, Shaniqua & Lordes know who their baby daddies are. They have to-otherwise they wouldn’t get welfare at all-
Right?
MPT for ALL couples: married, unmarried, one night stands, whatever. Period.
O
Mandy! xD
If you had used Mandy! xD instead of Mandy!
, you could have saved us all a lot of trouble.
*sigh*
I don’t like what l’m turning into.
Anony FACT: many of the girls from the projects don’t know who their baby daddy be.
Do you have a stat? How many blk girls from the projects do you know? I live 15 minutes away from a number of projects, it wasn’t until Maury started doing the Paternity shows that it even came to my mind & a number of my fellow blk ghetto dwellers that this behavior was more than a 1 out 100 sort of thing.
While I don’t deny there is some hoism in the projects, don’t make it seem that it’s only blk girls from the projects. There are a number of white women from the trailer parks who can’t name the father of their child.
FYI If drinking babies made one pregnant, there would be a good number of middle class wht girls pregnant too. See the young woman who posted here recently who can’t count the number of men she has chugged down.
FACT: welfare is a gift from working people to unmarried single moms who will raise troubled children. anony, I’ve never denied either of the two. I agree 100%, welfare isn’t what it once was in this country. Bill Clinton changed the game and there have been far more Whites on welfare.
FACT: 41% of all babies are born to single moms. This is not about race. yet you made it about race, reread your first “Fact”.
Its’ about an exchange of money. Why shouldn’t the taxpayer have a say in how it’s spent?
I agree 100% and when you made this point on the MPT post I agreed with you.
What I have a problem with is your making Out Of Wedlock Births the social problem of “the other” only. Poor/working class whts are guilty of the same crime.
Its’ about an exchange of money. Why shouldn’t the taxpayer have a say in how it’s spent?
Lets look at this again anony.>>>>> “Its’ about an exchange of money. Why shouldn’t the beta dad have a say in having his money spent on a child that isn’t his”
Bottom line anony, Mandatory MPT for every woman who has a child in this country, at the time of birth. No exclusions for race, class or religion. If you don’t want to take the test, then you forfeit the right to any futures child support monies.
Anony please dispense with the wild name calling and as hominems
I’m no angel but the one good thing I can say about myself on this blog as well as in real life, I can/will apologize when I’m wrong. I’ll actually feel guilty if I wronged or hurt someone.
So…… I was typing up an apology to you but then my aspergery brain started to do that thing it does when it becomes fixated on something or someone. I scrolled above and what did I come across….
*dume dume dume*
Fact 1 Anony on June 24, 2009 at 3:54 pm
@mandy with bashed ego
Fact 2 Anony on June 24, 2009 at 3:43 pm
@ mandy with bashed brain
Fact 3 Anony anonyon June 24, 2009 at 3:36 pm
@mandy with a small mind
^^^Your ripping apart of mandy with a small m, whose views I don’t share for the most part btw.
Now how the heck are you gonna demand that I “dispense with the wild name calling and ad hominems” when you did the very same thing to mandy with a small m?
Off topic: Mandy is much older than most of us.
Anony Are you being fair? Why is it you can name call but can’t take it when it’s your turn?
*shrugs shoulders*
I hate to say it anony, but you’re giving some of men folks theories credence when they say American women want two sets of rules.
The Snoopy post was a joke I used to make everyone laugh but I’ll be darn.
Why would you want to save trouble? Much less, a lot of it?
I would think that you would spend as much trouble as you can, that way you have less trouble left to bother you.
Also, if trouble is in danger, would you save it? No. It’s trouble. Don’t save trouble. It’ll only come back to stab you in the back.
TRUTH.
Mandy! XD
or xD
OK I will leave trouble alone and not save it.
Why do people fuck with trailer parks
””””””””Chic,
While I don’t deny there is some hoism in the projects, don’t make it seem that it’s only blk girls from the projects. There are a number of white women from the trailer parks who can’t name the father of their child. ””””””””””
The people in trailer parks pay rent or mortgage they probably own there own house.
I wonder if Anony took a Moonlight bike ride…
Chic, Right On again Sista!
O
Chic
Mandy been here, I refuse to believe you really think this way. SMH I can’t.
*reaches for inhaler*
I can’t resist lighting a fire under people occasionally!
Maybe I am just very immature, but something in me loves to poke at PC sacred cows. And when they show themselves to be thin skinned and incapable of either accepting or rejecting criticism unemotionally, well all the more fun I say – he he.
Anyhow about all this Castro comparison and women being allowed to do whatever women want to do – I think we all realize that women are much more prone to change their minds on a whim than men. What they want at 20 is rarely what they want at 30. Is someone going to seriously argue the contrary?
Anyhow, all this equality and women can do whatever men can do or having an “exciting career”, sounds great on paper – but we have many examples in human history that show it not working out so well in reality.
Someone once speculated that humans maybe aren’t well suited to advanced civilization and can only get so far before we muck it all up – again and again in the same ways.
There is simply a dark or unreasonable aspect to human nature most people aren’t able to deal with really well. Or don’t want to face up to fully -myself included.
Well, mandy been here, can’t argue with you on the last part.
But…haven’t you heard of men and the mid-life crisis?
I knew a girl back in the early 90′s. We were both in our very early 20′s. She was going to work as a waitress in Aspen for the summer to make money for school. She was probably an 8 or so. Her skin was fine. She was thin, a little taller than average. She was just slammin. Showed off her tan, smooth legs with shorts and skirts. Was quite girly.
At the time Don Johnson and Melanie Griffith were a couple and he was the type to go for waitresses. I just assumed, if he saw her he’d bag her. Melanie was a fine woman, but she wasn’t 21. And the girl was the type to name drop so she’d go for a famous guy.
21 year old women/girls, who aren’t fat, and are cute are the gold standard of sexual exchange. Heidi Klum in her mid thirties, even if she didn’t have the kids and the baggage, honestly wouldn’t be as hot. And I love Heidi.
I always get the feeling people know this but don’t want to admit it for some reason.
(Considering how hot the girls were in college it’s amazing I graduated. Unbelievable.)
Nice piece in the latest Atlantic Monthly on the dysfunctional American culture of marriage:
Let’s Call the Whole Thing Off
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200907/divorce
A tellingly upbeat view of marriage in tomorrow’s NY Times magazine:
Marriage Stands Up for Itself[?]
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/fashion/28marriage.html
Enjoyed your blog hope you keep posting from pattaya.