If I had to distill the essence of all the hate and doubt that is a regular feature of the comments on this blog, it would read like this:
“Game doesn’t work, and if it did you’re a loser for having to learn it to pick up girls because alpha males (who, by the way don’t exist except in your imagination) don’t make any effort to attract women, and anyhow the only girls that would fall for it are low self esteem bar skanks who wouldn’t give you the time of day because you’re a phony they will see right through. Try being yourself if you want a real woman to like you, except that will never happen because you are a celibate beta loser.”
It is, of course, self-contradictory nonsense. The average hater cannot string three sentences together without refuting what she (and they are usually shes) said in the first sentence. Their logic is so muddled that toying with them until I drive them insane with spittle-flecked rage has become something of a fun hobby for me.
But because I am a decent and kind person of magnanimous temperament, I will throw the haters a bone in this post. There are, indeed, two specific situations where you, as a regular, fat part of the bell curve man, do not need game to make a girl swoon. I will tell you what they are, but first, a little context is necessary.
Why do the haters offer up so many trite and transparently false objections to game to begin with? Are they trying to confuse us, or themselves? Have they been burned in the past by men doing to them exactly what I write about here, and thus project their angry bitterness on the symbolic manifestation of their real life pain, namely me?
Or do they really believe the idiocy they preach? Are they… TRUE BELIEVERS in the conventional wisdom school of JBY (just be yourself)? Is it possible, in other words, that in their own lives they met and fell in love with men who won them over running NO GAME AT ALL, natural or otherwise?
So… what motivates the haters? Answer: all of the above.
I suspect a few haters really do live in a lala land relatively free of the sort of easily observable human mating machinations that confound 99.9% of the rest of humanity, and thus can’t comprehend the reality of male-female psychological differences or the influence that game exerts over female attraction and courtship. They live in a platitude bubble; but like all bubbles, it will eventually burst.
Which brings us to the two exceptions to game.
- The girl you are dating is head over heels in love with you.
When a girl loves you so deeply that she wants to see you every day, and gets nervous when your text replies are delayed five seconds too long, you are in the DO-NO-WRONG ZONE, my friend. The DNW zone is a magic land where you can fart and belch and scratch yourself in the genital region and show up late (or early) for everything and buy shit for her all the time and cuddle for hours after sex and let her plan every date and dress in gym shorts and pit-stained t-shirts all the time and “yes, dear” her to death and constantly praise her beauty and whine like a beta bitch when you get a mosquito bite AND SHE WON’T LOSE AN IOTA OF ATTRACTION FOR YOU. She will happily take your deflated castrati ballsack slaps to the face and beg for more. You are a TEFLON LOVE GOD; no bad behavior sticks to you. You can be quite literally a NO GAME HAVING CHUMP and she will still think about fucking you every minute of the day.
Sounds like paradise, right? There’s a catch — this magic window only lasts about three months, after which if you do not shed your pathetic beta habits and step up your game, you WILL find her slowly and inexorably withdrawing her love and sex from you until one day you are wondering when such a good thing went so wrong.
So, you will need game before and after the 3-month DNW zone, but not during, if she is truly madly in love with you. Love… fuck yeah!
- The girl you are dating is two or more points below you in sexual market value.
This is cut and dried. Want to “be yourself” with a girl? Date a warpig! She will put up with EVERYTHING and ANYTHING and never bitch once. You will need to put in ZERO effort to keep such a woman satisfied. No game, no nothing. I know men who slum it for this very reason, and while I personally find that lifestyle incomprehensible and utterly distasteful — I mean, you may as well become a monk since you’ll be living a life completely devoid of any beauty or hedonistic pleasure — it does lend itself to a certain simplicity in managing affairs and obtaining the necessary freedom to pursue alternative pleasures. MMO playing sperg tards take note.
The downside with this scenario is that you have to date at least two points lower than your market value equivalent if you want a game-free dating experience that makes few demands on your time or energy. So for instance, if you are an 8, you need to date down to at least a 6 to enjoy the fruits of a drama-free relationship. If you really don’t like women acting out like women, and you want to be able to wallow in your clingy betaness without learning a lick of game, you will probably need to date lower than two points down.
The exact mechanism of the chick market value-game requirement nexus deserves further explication in a handy chart.
She is… % game required to keep her interested
>=1 point higher than you 100%
At your level 90%
1 point lower 60%
2 points lower 10%
>=3 points lower -% (reverse game)
Interesting phenomena appear when you dumpster dive so low that you enter reverse game territory. For example, if you are a 7 male and you date a 4, not only will you need NO game to keep her attracted for a long while, but running any sort of game can actually push her away from you. The 4 will feel she doesn’t deserve you and will be on pins and needles with you all the time, regardless of how you treat her. Running game will then send her into a vicious downward spiral of self-doubt and neediness so crippling that she will preemptively dump you to prevent a night alone overdosing on pills and cutting your name into her forearm. To keep the 4 in line, paradoxically, requires almost as much effort as keeping a hot girl into you — except instead of game you have to run the opposite of game on the 4. You have to beta yourself to the max; cards, gifts, compliments, slow and attentive lovemaking, hours of cunnilingus, super snuggles, etc. So there are diminishing returns to the strategy of dating down to avoid putting any effort into relationships. Not to mention diminishing boner hardness.
The ultimate score for the no-game, no-life having beta chump who hates the idea of working to change himself to get better quality women is the very low value woman who falls in love with him. Imagine a nasty, fat cape buffalo — one of Obsidian’s exes, for instance — who cries a little when she thinks of you. Or a single mom on the cusp of sexual irrelevance who forgets to pick up her kid from his ghetto school because she’s doing her nails and febrezing her pussy in anticipation of you coming over that night for dinner. When you’ve got shitty goods falling in love with you, dating becomes one giant lounge chair in which to lazily recline and be fed moldy grapes all day long. Yeah, you can barely get it up with women like that, but at least you can rip a wet fart in their faces, pull WoW all-nighters, and forget their birthdays and never pay a price for it — and tell everyone within earshot that getting “hot chicks” was really easy for you, so those other guys learning game to find good women must be losers.
With obesity and single motherhood rampant, more American men than ever are availing themselves — intentionally or not — of the dating down option. So while game may be more necessary than ever to land that genuinely hot babe, for increasing numbers of men game and the knowledge contained therein are simply not on their radar. Which may explain why we are currently witnessing such a growing effete chorus of manginas, pedestalizing evangelicals, and limp-wristed SWPLs parroting the feminist and Iron John shibboleths. They aren’t trying to convince us so much as they are trying to convince themselves of the awesomeness of their fatass and bastard spawn-towing lovers.
Some of the few true believer haters living in lala land that I wrote of above likely fall into the category of people dating easy-to-please losers that they have tricked themselves into rationalizing as good mate choices. (Some of the haters are truly in the midst of love and can’t think straight without a gauzy filter Disney-fying their saccharine musings.) Perhaps for them, their beta soulmates appeared — warts and all — and they settled, wondering disingenuously and retroactively why people make such a big deal of finding someone. So when you hear their lame jeremiads against game, translate that as an admission that they are either a) naturals who aren’t smart enough to reflect on what they are doing right, or b) bitter bitches and betaboys trained in the art of justifying their crappy love lives.
Men without fame or vast wealth who want to date and fuck hot women need to know game. It’s as simple as that. There’s no such thing as a free lunch. Men who don’t care about porking the flabby wet hole of some she-beast will never understand the need for — or the truth of — game, for to understand it is to understand the miserable depths of their own lives, and that is a dark road most are not willing to travel. The low value women who love these men will likewise never understand game, and will lash out at those who do. Ironically, their garbage lives insulate them from the redemption that exists just beyond their pitiable horizons.
Who is writing this stuff? Bring back the old proprietor.
Truer words were never spoken. *bows*
I love the haters because that means less competition for me. Let them hate. I’ll just go out and game the chicks they don’t want to.
A lot of hate comes from white knights who think that’s still what impresses girls. Then they question why they have so many girl “friends”. Like you said they end up settling and finding a girl who will too. Once that biological clock starts ticking away, the beta provider becomes quite appealing.
I know another reason guys become haters is because they fail at game. They read Mystery Method, try a few lines and go crashing and burning into the weeds. Game becomes nothing more than BS and they give up.
Snagging those girls who are 3 or more points below you is actually a paradox. Because they snagged you in the first place, their value will go up. A girl would have to be pretty low on any scale for game to push her away. Obviously dropping atomic negs on a 4 is bad, but a little game is always required.
All women are looking for two things in men; physical prowess and social status. If they can get both all the better.
The problem with physical prowess is that you either have it or you don’t. Being tall or having good facial symmetry is something you have almost zero control over. The other factors are youth and health.
The only factor men can control for then is status. Here we are also more limited then we sometimes want to believe. Things such as wealth, humor, fame, etc. can all be proxies for intelligence. Changing that is about as hard as changing your height. Some people are born the Duke of York or something or win power ball but that is somewhat rare. Someone also might inheirit wealth or status but often that is handed down from parents the same way genes are handed down.
Game is important, but having a big dick or a net worth in seven figures (no decimal points) works the best.
This post sounds like it was written by a high schooler trying too hard to sound sophisticated. It’s clunky and verbose. It lacks roissy’s easy fluid prose and verbal elegance.
Bring back roissy.
Haters gonna hate, but the silver lining; you’re doing something right if you have haters, and more manginas settling for fat fugly girls means two things;
1) Less fat, fugly girls clouding my visage and clumsily making passes at me (this is a huge problem; I remember one fat girl had a crush on me and I was closing on her friend, tension rose so we all got together for drinks one night. Ultimately my rejection of the fat girl, which was anything but harsh, cost me her slim friend).
2) Less competition for the slender sweethearts that game makes accessible.
I fuckin’ love manginas…
Roissy is that you? It must be – because I learned something. brilliant.
Renegade wishes he had haters,
but he’s left with just fellators.
Women are TRUE BELIEVERS in anything that serves their biological imperatives.
Their inherent weakness dictates that they must always believe their own bullshit.
Roissy, write a book. I laugh my ass off and look up ~4-5 new words everytime i read a post of yours (oh, and learn).
There are definitely guys who don’t think game works and think it’s pathetic to even entertain the idea. I’d like to see them out with any one of the girls I date and watch them roll over in defeat…and crumble under the pressure. They would end that night broke and lonely. Girls can be savages.
Roissy–
I understand why you may want to farm out your posts to others – avoiding blog burnout, obfuscating your identity, giving a platform to friends, keeping readers tuning in – but you’re diluting your brand. It’s not merely the observations and advice that keep people coming back, but your writing style and the personality behind it. The observations and advice can be copied, but your voice cannot, no matter how clever the other writers try to be. (Also, you have a superior command of writing mechanics, which is a pleasure all its own.)
To paraphrase one of your own maxims, one post a month by Roissy is worth a month of posts by the other Chateau proprietors.
>limp-wristed SWPLs parroting the feminist and Iron John shibboleths
Oh Roissy, why do you hate SWPL men so? All they’re doing is status-whoring, and status–even fucked up kinds of status–is a proven way to attract women. Stop pretending to be mystified by SWPL guys with hot girlfriends.
The assumption that the lower a woman’s SMV, the more beta a man has to be to keep her, is not really correct in my observation.
I think the writer, who by his own admission has not had much experience of dating low-SMV women, may be over- hypothesizing here.
In my observation, most women, no matter how low their SMV, believe it to be much higher than it is. Even if by some minor miracle of fate they don’t believe this at the beginning of the relationship the very fact of having a man at all, never mind a high-value man, will send their ego into free-fall. A 6 who nabs a male 8 will assume herself to be a 9 as soon as the three month honey moon period is over. Ditto with a 4 and a 6, a 2 and a 4 and so forth.
Conversely, the low SMV woman who actually knows it is so unusual, and so exceptionally self-aware, as to be fairly immune from most forms of Game in the first place.
So I don’t buy the reverse game thing. Although elegant, it isn’t borne out by practical experience.
Funnily enough, I would actually say this is a post by the original blog author.
Best post in months.
Even if based strictly on the amount of hate in the comments.
Long live the DNW zone!
The funniest thing about the game-haters and their criticisms is that even schlubs who eschew game are still on some level using it – unless they are 100% going for the nice guy/white knight approach.
That any man looking for sex will bend his approach to fit the path of least resistance is almost irrefutable. That’s not to say he needs to violate his personal code. But most men will “game” even a little without realizing it.
Reminds me of Team America: World Police, when the hero promises the girl that he “will never die” so that he can get in her pants. Ha!
There is a third exception: if you live in a culture where “game” in shunned and there is some collective social control over the mating process. For example, if you live in a society with state-run positive eugenics, your “real” value may be sufficient to attract women and any use of “game” to increase the perception of your value is not necessary. As of today, positive eugenics are only practiced in Singapore.
Excellent work! In just a few comments the white knighting ID’s and put in its place.
I could just imagine the tone and inflection of this post.
The game does come up in social circles amongst the single people. I debate and go back/fourth in devils advocating with other women about the game for our religions, tact, existence, important of, etc. Why? that is what we single women do: talk about men.
It seems that ladies are afraid to be honest w/ themselves. Game is good for many reasons and yes, I know all the usual points regarding our christianity. Look, game pisses off the vile, repitilians feminists, that alone is awesome.
I did not have the time to comment about it last week in “whether or not to bring up politics and religion” matter. But in short we do have faith and do not just check it at the door per se. IMHO, there are somethings that are nor “godly” or “ungodly”.
Sometimes, things are just neutral, common and wise for understanding humanity. A guy going after a girl is a great thing. A girl responding to his advances and love is not bad.
because she’s doing her nails and febrezing her pussy
Fuck me. I rolled on the floor.
to quote Chris Rock whenever a woman says be yourself, girl, “you ain’t that tall, your boobs ain’t that big, your hair isn’t that color, your nails aren’t that color, your eyes aren’t that color, you…..and you expect me to tell the truth?
a woman’s virtually entire physical appearance is hardly “her just being herself”. get the f*** outta here. it’s like when you hear some girl who you personally know ADORES twilight and but says game is bullshit.
or those girls that fawn over Michael Cera, but you know them personally and all the guys they met at bars and fucked are the polar opposite in virtually every manner possible.
sdaedalus
In my observation, most women, no matter how low their SMV, believe it to be much higher than it is.
I think this is culture specific to a considerable degree. There was a discussion on here not so many days ago about how extraordinarily much lower SMV Irish girls such as 4s consider themselves 7s or 8s, and you heartily agreed. That phenomenon certainly occurs in the US too, but perhaps not quite as much. I definitely think it occurs less in most foreign countries outside the hyper feminist Anglosphere, based on my travels. E.g. it happens way less in Sweden, France, Italy, Japan etc.
So I don’t buy the reverse game thing. Although elegant, it isn’t borne out by practical experience.
Although I think Chateau greatly exaggerates the degree of “betaness” he says will help when dating a girl with >=2 SMV lower than you, I think he’s right in essence. I think the terminology is partly the problem. It’s more useful to say that with girls that feel really insecure with you, you need to spend more time on comfort, and less on negging. But in truth you always need to do both. The balance is just a little different. It’s nowhere near as mega different as Chateau’s conceptual scheme in this post suggests. E.g. even with a more than 1 point lower SMV girl a guy should never show true emotional neediness for long. Moments of weakness after she loves you are ok, but they shouldn’t go on too long. Yeah it’s tough out there for a pimp. Just the way life is.
Actually a guy who’s good at game (and mine is part natural and partly self taught long ago from trial and error and observing other guys with a real gift) will vary his push pull on the the fly, according to what’s working with the girl – which is partly her personality as well as her hotness, her mood, and so on.
RC, you’re either preaching to the choir or shouting into the bitter winds of Hurricane Hatred.
The problem inherent with all ‘hater logic’ is that EVERYONE is running some kind of Game. Even the JBY non-answer to intergender relations is still a form of Game. Everyone practices some form of methodology which they believe is the best way to facilitate breeding.
If you just be yourself, women will be attracted to you and you will get pussy.
If you supplicate, be sensitive to her needs, and treat her like a princess you will get pussy.
If you can better identify with her, you will be unique amongst “other typical guys” she will be attracted to you and you will get pussy.
If you lift her up from her position of destitution and/or solve her personal problems, she will reciprocate with pussy.
These are all methodologies of beta-game, but they ARE still Game. Bad, misguided, provably invalid Game, but still Game. This then of course is the problem; all of this beta-game is the simply result of acculturation and social influence on breeding methodologies – which under today’s western model happens to be heavily skewed by feminization. No critical thought, no focus, no reinforcement for attempting to be so, and outright ostracization for anything remotely conflicting with that self-analysis. All of that is a form of Game.
I’d like to see them out with any one of the girls I date and watch them roll over in defeat…and crumble under the pressure. They would end that night broke and lonely. Girls can be savages.
that’s the thing about women. they can be savages or they can be the most loving, compliant, servile creatures on god’s green earth.
haters hate because they fail to grasp the single most important concept in social dynamics: female morality is situational.
What one should really do with a 2 point SMV difference is turn her into a fuck buddy.
[…] The Two Exceptions To Game « Citizen Renegade Posted on September 8, 2010 by The LP 999 The Two Exceptions To Game « Citizen Renegade. […]
“Men without fame or vast wealth (or male model attractive physique) who want to date and fuck hot women need to know game. It’s as simple as that. There’s no such thing as a free lunch.”
that’s the rub!
This is not Roissy. WTF? Can’t stand the inferior writing of the new “proprietors”.
With obesity and single motherhood rampant, more American men than ever are availing themselves — intentionally or not — of the dating down option.
Well, since the men are becoming fatter and more frequently deadbeat dads also, not really.
Rollo Tomassi, do you have a blog and/or website?
I’d like to add that when dealing with women, her perception of her dating market value is more important that what it actually is. A 6 that thinks she’s a 4 will be super clingy, while a 6 that thinks she’s a 9 will act like she has a solid gold, diamond encrusted pussy.
Spot-on, Chateau, as usual.
The urge to date down sometimes comes with game fatigue, usually early in the process of learning game, before it’s a natural movement, before the body and mind adapt to game’s unique demands. Like when riding a bike up a long steep grade, one wants to rest now and then, sit back and pedal with less effort. Early on, it’s a lot of work to apply the 90% effort game necessary to keep an equal-value partner.
And as to the folks who accuse of some ghostwriting–I’ve done a ton of writing coaching, editing, and various other English-language analysis, and I’m picking up no signals of incongruent sentence structure or anomalies in composition structure, or any other disingenuity.
Besides–what does it matter? If it’s gold, it’s gold, no matter who minted it.
I think the terminology is partly the problem. It’s more useful to say that with girls that feel really insecure with you, you need to spend more time on comfort, and less on negging. But in truth you always need to do both.
Doug, I agree with this. In a world where every girl was aware of her placement pretty accurately, then it would be true that the lower she was in relative SMV, the easier it would be to keep her. However, the reality in her head can be wildly different from the reality around her.
It can actually go both ways. In the US, it’s more likely that she’d inflate her value. In a more severe country, she’d deflate it. A good deal of this comes from the way men and women treat her, but also what the media implicitly portrays as the most desirable women.
Women overestimate the importance of their sense of fashion, for example.
Another hit-home post from Roissy. There’s so many people I know who’d get defensive if they read this. With reference to that second-last paragraph, I suggest we call it Shrek Syndrome.
If I dated girls of my SMV or lower, I’d barely manage a semi. I’m curse with having standards that exceed my SMV and I’ve got a mountain to climb. I also have contempt to guys who date below their SMV. My dorky friend’s near-spherical Singaporean ex is now dating some dweeb. I look at pictures of him and think “disgusting”. With guys like that it’s like they’ve resigned themselves to just wanting companionship – why not just get a cat (or a sexdoll if you want to spice up masturbation)? I think a guy’s SMV is partially influenced by the sort of women he dates like that. A lot of guys are better off channelling their frustration into upping their game and/or working on their artistic skills (if they have any) taking a potentially compensatory rockstar route. More girls => your SMV fall head over heels for you that way. That happened to me, and I screwed up.
Reverse game is not just “not playing game” but also a situation where the girl is pursuing *you*, and girls don’t really ‘game’ men they’re after, and it’s usually creepy sycophantic behaviour and psycho stalking as far as the warpigs go. Depressing for all but the most dumpster diving men to endure. Low SMV girls do indeed hate game though, so sluffing them off is easier and it’s even easier to be cruel about it.
By the way, ‘aspie’ is more universally understood than ‘sperg’. Jsyk.
a) naturals who aren’t smart enough to reflect on what they are doing right
Aren’t smart or not cognizant of it through being in a loved up stupor. Naturals never need to acknowledge what game is.
Proles, we must admit, are natural unconscious gamers. They have their own SMV scale so from their perspective, they’re doing well.
Also, if you think this is below Roissy standard, say why. Otherwise you’re just bitching and throwing things off-topic.
“Well, since the men are becoming fatter and more frequently deadbeat dads also, not really.”
are you actually laboring under the misapprehension that a “deadbeat dad” has the same drop in Sexual Market Value as a Single Mom? who the fuck cares if a man pays for his kids from another woman? uh, no one. but no man wants to take care of some other man’s cuckoo eggs while partaking of his sloppy seconds
Yea nice post and christ but are there enough blogs talking about cr and his created roissyspere.
Type citizen renegade lol
I tend to agree with this, although I will say that it’s the INTENSITY of game that’s required with a hotter chick in addition to the amount of game necessary to keep her.
For example, a 6 might require the bare basics (assuming your status markers beyond your game… job, wealth, looks, etc…are above a 6. This basically means eschewing all beta behavior and playing your game straight down the middle (i.e., waiting a couple of days to call after pulling number, ending phone convos early, the basics).
Once you cross the 7.5 threshold. I’ve found that I’ve had to step it up a notch. When you meet really pretty girls (8+), it seems that their ex-lovers ALWAYS either cheated on them, were sociopaths, or had some other fundamental character defect. It’s not enough to simply adhere to the basics with these chicks. You’ve got to bring the drama.
@ dana, yeah, if a guys is forking over a quarter of his paycheck to his baby-momma, then that means less available resources for us to go out / go on vacation, etc. And if he’s spending ever other weekend with the kids, that’s less time we can spend together not at Chuck-E-Cheese or watching a Disney movie.
And if he’s *not* forking over that money, and spending those weekends with the kids, that’s a bigger problem.
LJ
“With obesity and single motherhood rampant, more American men than ever are availing themselves — intentionally or not — of the dating down option.
Well, since the men are becoming fatter and more frequently deadbeat dads also, not really.”
Wrong, LJ. Men don’t take nearly the hit to their SMV from their own obesity that women do.
There is no female equivalent to a Tony Soprano.
If you don’t mind that a woman is physically repulsed by you then you have it made. Otherwise, when you accidentally catch that glimpse of her looking like she is going to throw up when you are phucking her, it is total boner kill. Sometimes its better to settle with someone who worships the ground you walk on and thinks you are super hot than the exact opposite.
“who the fuck cares if a man pays for his kids from another woman? ”
I get your point dana; single motherhood is worse than deadbeat fatherhood.
However, I would be alarmed if the man I was dating did not care for his previous children as it could indicate he would not care for ours if we did not remain together. I might be more hesitant to bear the burden of childbirth/raising a child if I knew he was a deadbeat.
Roisslord,
The non believers in the authenticity of your current posts demand reckoning my liege.
Most deadbeat dads are sneaky enough to not mention they are deadbeat dads in the first place. Any deadbeat dad who is stupid enough to mention the kids he doesn’t even pay for is a moron and deserves to be stripped of his game status.
I do agree it’s easier for a guy to make up for bad looks, including obesity, with a good personality or other positive attributes. But I was just pointing out that the trends causing women to become less attractive are also affecting men.
And whether you’re dating down or up is all relative. That is, if you’re more attractive than 70% of men, then dating at your level would be dating a woman who’s more attractive than 70% of women. Yes it’s true that in 2010 she’s fatter than she was in 1970, but so are you.
I don’t understand why a woman would want to date a serious player if she’s looking for a husband/serious, long term LRT. (And for all of you 18 yr. olds, long term does not equal 1-4 years, it means until death – more like 25-50 years.)
Doesn’t make sense – sounds like he’d just drop her when she ages, or not marry her, or make a risky father who would leave for a younger woman as soon as she ages or “lowers her rating” by giving birth to their children.
So a “gamer” might be good for sex, but frankly anybody like Roissy is a BIG problem for a woman looking for a mate. And the longer they date, the more of a problem it is for her, because the relationship is a waste of time and keeping her from finding a good husband/mate.
There’s a lot of condescending pity here for the “provider beta,” or the “pump and dump situation” but frankly, I think a woman would have to be an idiot to waste her time with somebody like Roissy. Of course, if she’s just looking for some fun, and not for a mate, then whatever. But a short LRT (2-4 years) with a player is the WORST situation for a woman who’s serious about finding a real partner, because it distracts her from meeting a guy who will be a good husband and father.
btw – I’m sure the “game” is good for attracting sexual partners, especially if you’re trying to attract sexual submissives. It sounds like a mix of low level mental BDSM, with some good hygiene and assertiveness training.
Dream puppy is almost right. If a man is stupid enough to mention his kids that he never sees or pays for, that’s a major turn-off for a long-term relationship. If, on the other hand, the guy is using pictures of his kids to induce trust for a one-night stand, then, it’s game on.
”””””LJ
I do agree it’s easier for a guy to make up for bad looks, including obesity, with a good personality or other positive attributes. But I was just pointing out that the trends causing women to become less attractive are also affecting men.
And whether you’re dating down or up is all relative. That is, if you’re more attractive than 70% of men, then dating at your level would be dating a woman who’s more attractive than 70% of women. Yes it’s true that in 2010 she’s fatter than she was in 1970, but so are you.
”””””
Yea but comparing men vs woman in us on a global scale with outsourcing capability when there are plenty of men and woman to have a partner for every man and woman in us is kind of funny. Then you factor in hypergamy it becomes a future horrow story to try to pretend woman are equal to men.
Plus one in five marriages to foreigners.
I would prefer someone who supported his kids even if it would mean he would have less money to do things with me. He shouldn’t have to support their mother, though. Also, I agree that kids from a previous marriage or relationship is less of a negative for a man than it is for a woman. If anything, it could actually make him more attractive.
A lot of women actually like the idea of bonding with your kids.
*I don’t understand why a woman would want to date a serious player if she’s looking for a husband/serious, long term LRT.*
I think it’s because a lot of girls think they can change the guy they’ve chosen.
@ Laura –
A lot of women actually like the idea of bonding with your kids.
–
Really? That seems icky to me. Maybe it’s because I’m still in my 20′s but I just don’t get that. My feeling is the kids already have a mom, they don’t need me and I’ll always be 2nd fiddle anyway. Maybe if the mother had passed away (and I was older and ready to have a family)…
All of the money in the world can’t compensate for looking old or ugly or obese. No matter how much cash you have, the woman is going to be turned off physically in some way unless she is less attractive than you. That’s why I go for 4s and 5s as a 6.5 rather than strive for 7s and 8s who always give me the vibe that they are pity phucking me.
LJ
@ dana, yeah, if a guys is forking over a quarter of his paycheck to his baby-momma,
More like a quarter of his pretax pay depending a bit on the state. It’s gonna be a whole lot more than a quarter of his take home pay, depending on his tax bracket and the rate of state income tax.
@Chief Rocka
http://www.rationalmale.com
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/index.php
Search my name at either forum.
LJ,
I guess it could complicate things and tie you down somewhat. I’m older than you and have my own children so maybe that’s why I think that way. At your age, though, it shouldn’t be too hard to find someone without kids.
””””’“Game doesn’t work, and if it did you’re a loser for having to learn it to pick up girls because alpha males (who, by the way don’t exist except in your imagination) don’t make any effort to attract women, and anyhow the only girls that would fall for it are low self esteem bar skanks who wouldn’t give you the time of day because you’re a phony they will see right through. Try being yourself if you want a real woman to like you, except that will never happen because you are a celibate beta loser.”
It is, of course, self-contradictory nonsense. The average hater cannot string three sentences together without refuting what she (and they are usually shes) said in the first sentence. Their logic is so muddled that toying with them until I drive them insane with spittle-flecked rage has become something of a fun hobby for me.
””””””
Within the first 3 sentences the question the hate and the answer.
lol
””””Cactus Cooler
All of the money in the world can’t compensate for looking old or ugly or obese. No matter how much cash you have, the woman is going to be turned off physically in some way unless she is less attractive than you. That’s why I go for 4s and 5s as a 6.5 rather than strive for 7s and 8s who always give me the vibe that they are pity phucking me.
”””’
Really really?
@Chief Rocka
rationalmale dot com
sosuave dot com
Search my name at either forum.
Women game too and it WORKS!!! I won’t tell you how here, but it works. Some are natural at it and some are just learning.
All is fair in love and war!
Let the GAMES begin!! lol!!
Cactus Cooler,
I guess that’s a good strategy. I sort of agree, if I were a man I would probably lower my standards a little just to have someone that really liked me.
”””””because it distracts her from meeting a guy who will be a good husband and father.””””
You never really know if you will be a good father or not until you are.
This website has lots of interesting information about Game. I stumbled across a television series which made several references to Game. I watched the first twenty minutes of the re-run of the CBS series NCIS: Los Angeles on September 7th.
Early in the program, NCIS Agent Jack Hanna (LL Cool J) had a conversation with Agent Kensi Blye (Danida Ruah). Agent Blye comments about some man who she met in a bar. She gave him her phone number, and she mentioned that she bought a drink for him. Hanna repeatedly tells her that the man was employing Game on her. It was intriguing to see Game discussed on primetime television. Maybe Roissy has some fans in Hollywood!
dream puppy
However, I would be alarmed if the man I was dating did not care for his previous children as it could indicate he would not care for ours if we did not remain together. I might be more hesitant to bear the burden of childbirth/raising a child if I knew he was a deadbeat.
If I was the victim of an accidential i.e. “oops” pregnancy where she said she was on birth control after we’d been together awhile, and I asked her to have an abortion preferably or at least give the kid up for adoption, I very probably wouldn’t want to support it.
I’d probably feel similarly if a wife left me while the kid was still an infant. She’d probably be having an affair if that happened. Certainly such cases are in the news.
If I’d bonded with kids that can walk and talk I wouldn’t want to abandon them. In fact I’d want joint custody. But the heavy levels of stealth alimony in feminist late 80s and early 90s child support=also stealth alimony really piss me off. It’s particularly heavy in alimony when paid by upper middle class men.
Further did you know that many family court judges won’t lower the amount if e.g. a big firm lawyer is sick of that line of work and wants to go into law related journalism with a big cut in earnings, effectively chaining him to his job. Whereas if the ex wife with custody wants to do the exact same thing that’s fine and dandy. Even though the theory of child support law is that both parents are contributing the same percentage of their earnings to child support (which is a total bald fiction).
Hi;
this post, with its preoccupation about haters sounds like the writing of a thin skinned liberal like Roosh, not like that of a conservative like Roissy.
This is crap. Bring back Roissy.
And “war pig”? Thats a Tucker Max term.
huh–
btw – I’m sure the “game” is good for attracting sexual partners, especially if you’re trying to attract sexual submissives. It sounds like a mix of low level mental BDSM, with some good hygiene and assertiveness training.
The vast majority of women want to be sexual submissives in bed, and are by far most thrilled when they are, though a great many of them don’t know that until an alpha man leads them here. They’ve been lied to by the feminism taught in school, universities and the entertainment media all their lives. So have gen Y beta guys of course.
The fact you devoted that much time to replying to some “hate mail” speaks volumes about your insecurities. If you didn’t care, you wouldn’t dissect words like that.
“Men without fame or vast wealth who want to date and fuck hot women need to know game. It’s as simple as that.”
Or they can do hookers.
And if u can game the hookers – which I do – even better.
@Doug1
“The vast majority of women want to be sexual submissives in bed, and are by far most thrilled when they are, though a great many of them don’t know that until an alpha man leads them here.”
Same can be said for a vast majority of men.
””””””DirkJohanson
“Men without fame or vast wealth who want to date and fuck hot women need to know game. It’s as simple as that.”
Or they can do hookers.
And if u can game the hookers – which I do – even better.
””””””’
Ok or strip club woman are pretty dam hot too.
@DirkJohanson
“And if u can game the hookers – which I do – even better.”
Hookers do not need any gaming!!lol!! They just need your money!
Really best chance of hitting way the fuck out of your league on hotness has got to be strippers or hookers if you can get them hooked.
In whatever environment you find yourself you can always have access to hot woman without having to go through to many hoops and waste precious time while at the same time gaming more prudish chicks. it is win win for your confidense level.
Collect the whole set he he he
””””’what
@DirkJohanson
“And if u can game the hookers – which I do – even better.”
Hookers do not need any gaming!!lol!! They just need your money!
””””
I think hookers are actually the woman more likely than not to not need your money and actually have some of their own.
@huh: “I think a woman would have to be an idiot to waste her time with somebody like Roissy.”
As has been pointed out before- attraction is not a choice.
“a short LRT (2-4 years) with a player is the WORST situation for a woman who’s serious about finding a real partner”
Agreed. See, e.g., Jennifer Assinine.
“I’m sure the “game” is good for attracting sexual partners”
You mean like a wife? I believe that one of game’s most useful aspects is empowering men to understand how to place themselves within the erotic view of a suitable woman. Presuming there are any men still inclined to marry.
””’ date and fuck hot women need to know game. It’s as simple as that. ”””’
But yea to date and fuck them you need game.
Success brings hate.
All women date multiple men at same time and practice game.
Its one of those dirty little secrets of womanhood that the internet, deep statistical analysis, CDC data mining, and PUA exposes have revealed.
Women are seeking mates, and they are brutal in getting to their goal.
If you at all doubt this peruse female prison stats, divorce filings, infidelity statistics, illigetimate paternal blood testing at birth, and other stats that expose the farce, when this goal fails.
I doubted it myself…but after txting over 7000 women via match.com and testing them via game theory it became very evident.
Every txt was a challenge:
-R u really that smart? Is that Pic recent, R u blonde.
-What do u want
-Im busy
-Lets date Wed.
With strict optionality to screen prime targets, reveal interest, force decision, and restrict outcomes to success or failure.
7000 winks over 7 mos (1000/mo; 250/wk; 50/day)
700 txt responses
350 emails > paragraph
150 response emails >3x
50 dates/ w. cell#
10 2nd dates
7 3rd dates
5 bangs
Most men sleep with 10 women, and tops converse with 100 women in lifetime mating dialogue (eg, >7 days, over 10yr span to marriage).
These #s mask the rampant duplicity in female courting, that a 700 dialogue sample reveals.
Take aways:
-looks, money, status are equalizers: you will get a repsonse if u have
-Women will respond to promise of reward: dinner, gift, access to event, travel…no matter how far afield
-Lack of decorum is rewarded:
not responding to them;
“ha, Ha” to any challenge;
sex as currency exchange is acknowledged
-Age for Pay; women openly use their age as leverage to gain better access and bar other women.
-Internet reveals true motives; 20yo females responding to 40yo males.
-de-valuers: their height, darkening skin, age, immigration
Until women acknowledge this asymmetry in what they project and what they choose, and take responsibility for their choices we will have this farce.
Divorce, single moms, infertility, and suicide are outcomes
In terms of “explaining haters”: I think at least part of it has to do with a certain type of hypocrisy.
Roissy has implied that he admires the type of marriages associated with the WW II generation. I don’t see Roissy being willing to step up and fill the role of a good husband & father: he seems to want the privilege but not the responsibility. (Obviously I don’t know him – if he’s got a family then I’m just referring to what he seems to advocate on this blog.)
Quite frankly, men who engaged in certain types of “player” behavior were labeled as criminals in the 19th century. (Seriously- men could & were put away for up to 4 years for the crime of seduction in the US.)
Another point about dating women below your SMV is that a lot of your behaviour will be naturally gaming her: you feel you can do better, if you weren’t so lazy.
That’s inner game right there.
@what
@Doug1
“The vast majority of women want to be sexual submissives in bed, and are by far most thrilled when they are, though a great many of them don’t know that until an alpha man leads them here.”
Same can be said for a vast majority of men.
Uh, no they don’t.
Doug1, however, is right on. “I want to be your sex slave” is so commonly uttered by girls after sex as to be a cliche’.
Roissy (or others)
Any thoughts on mail order brides from eastern europe and asia? What sort of game are they going to require and what would be the pitfalls of buying yourself a good looking one. Thanks.
Women are the only ones that believe that “being themselves” will work, simply because that is what has always worked for them, so it must be true that its the same way for men, right? FUCK NO! WRONG!
Get a brain, and realize that there are IN FACT differences between men and women, and not just our sexual parts. It’s everything.
Everything about game is the opposite, and that’s the brilliance of why it works. Act like you don’t want her, and she’ll be CHASING YOU 🙂 Act like you do want her, and she’ll be RUNNING AWAY!
Being themselves has always worked for women because men accept it. They put up with their shit, and give away all our power of choice when it comes to getting laid. It requires zero effort on their part, because men are constantly approaching them and investing into them. Since when have you ever seen a woman do this to a complete stranger who isn’t SUPER HIGH STATUS?
Amen, love the blog.
@Anton
@what
@Doug1
“Doug1, however, is right on. “I want to be your sex slave” is so commonly uttered by girls after sex as to be a cliche’.
Virtually all of the women I’ve ever been with with very few exceptions have wanted to be “taken”, to swoon to a more powerful man. Only a few, and only occasionally, have wanted to be in the more powerful position.
Long, slow lovemaking versus being taken and enjoyed by a more powerful man? One is fine, but being taken better at least be possible. I’ve heard this from many women.
It’s almost so facile as to be not worth mentioning.
Roissy has implied that he admires the type of marriages associated with the WW II generation. I don’t see Roissy being willing to step up and fill the role of a good husband & father: he seems to want the privilege but not the responsibility.
Implied? Hardly. He has merely pointed out that the original institution of marriage was responsible for the foundation of western civilization.
This criticism here is another version of a ‘hater.’ Misplaced hate…you hate the player for playing the game – without acknowledging that the game has changed.
In the “old days” social shaming prevented widespread female promiscuity.
Now that our feminist-fucked culture has completely unleashed female sexuality from Patriarchal oppression, why should any man buy the cow when so many of them are giving away their milk for free?
Ironically, their garbage lives insulate them from the redemption that exists just beyond their pitiable horizons.
Jaysus man, I’ve told you before you’re a good writer but this is positively shakespearian. great job.
Good post, but disagree with reverse territory thing.
If you show too much interest/betaness inappropriately, even a whale will run.
@Doug- didnt think about it that way. I guess it really depends on the situation. In the scenarios you stated i’m with you 100%, but if they had amicably divorced and she wasn’t a shrew….(i know, i know, just entertain the idea) and you’d raised him with her….a type of man that is able to walk away from that situation deserves the red flag that he raises to most women. It just shows he is able to discard even the closest of bonds; a bond you could never hope to achieve.
Tangent alert: Dana’s blog has a good post stating that men actually tend towards the opposite. I have seen evidence (both peer reviewed and anecdotal) corroborating this -when men commit they do so whole-heartedly.
CW:
If women actually believed that, then
a) women’s magazines wouldn’t exist
b) Jean-Simeon Chardin wouldn’t have had this inscribed on a striking example of one of his paintings: “‘If this charming child takes on so well the serious air and imposing manner of a schoolmistress, may one not think that pretence and artfulness come to the fair sex no later than birth.”
What this essentially means is that we play the social game much more naturally, but make no mistake: it is studied.
What the women essentially are protesting when they say ‘Just Be Yourself’ is the idea they may be “fooled” into overestimating a man’s value, and make choices with him they wouldn’t have otherwise made.
Doug1:
What one should really do with a 2 point SMV difference is turn her into a fuck buddy.
Agreed. I’ve got two current fuck buddies, both of whom are ~2pts lower than me. I think they both understand implicitly that I would never date them, but they know that when they booty call me, they will get my undivided attention and a proper rojering.
1. Women’s magazines exist in order to sell fashion and gossip.
2. The painting just proves that women become naturals at manipulation at an early age.
THIS SITE IS VERY COMMENDABLE GENERALLY SPEAKING.
I FIND THIS PROBLEM, HOWEVER- THE SITE IS RUN BY A MAN WHO IN HIS DEPTHS KNOWS THAT HE IS BEST SUITED AS AN INSTRUMENT OF THE WILL OF STILL HIGHER MEN.
HE WOULD “COME INTO HIS OWN” UNDER CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE HE IS SERVING ANOTHER MAN’S (OR OTHER MEN’S) GOALS. LET’S CALL THE LATTER SUCH MAN/MEN ALEF/ALEFS. AND I MEAN “SERVING” IN THE MOST RESPECTABLE SENSE.
SO, THE PROPRIETOR OF THIS SITE– THIS ALPHA– SPEAKS A LOT ABOUT THE WAY OF THE ALPHA AND THE WAY OF THE BETA (TO USE HIS LANGUAGE), AND THAT IS ALL GOOD AND COMMENDABLE. WHAT HES NOT SAYING THOUGH IS THAT HE IS categorically SUITED FOR SERVICE OF ANOTHER’S WILL, AS HIS HIGHEST GOOD, AS THE PINNACLE OF WHAT HE CAN ACHIEVE IN AN IDEAL WORLD.
OF COURSE WE ARE NOT IN THAT IDEAL WORLD, AND HE DOES NOT FIND WILLS TO BE THE EXCELLENT INSTRUMENT OF. SO HE DOES WHAT HE CAN, AND IS OTHERWISE ESSENTIALLY A VIOLIN LYING IDLE, IF YOU WILL. ROISSY IS ONE WHO IS WAITING AND LYING IDLE. AND IN THE MEANTIME, WHEN THE WIND BLOWS HARD ENOUGH, YOU HEAR A LOW HUM THROUGH THIS PAGE, AND GET A SENSE OF THE MUSICIAN THAT HE AND THE BETTER AMONG HIS ALPHAS WAIT FOR. THIS IS THE NATURE OF HIS SOUL.
ANYHOO
THIS IS A HILARIOUS SITE OTHERWISE… “WARPIG”… LETS SEE WHAT DO I USE IN THAT SITUATION– I GUESS MY TERM IS “PIGSLUT”… “WARPIG” DEF PACKS MORE PUNCH THOUGH, ASSUMING THE CONTEXT IS CLEAR 😉
HUH, 19th century, that’s a century and some ago, if I am not mistaken. Times changed. Hell, times changed dramatically withing the scope of my lifetime (56yo).
The Game is a response to these changes. There was always a game, of one sort or another, and for a long time, the rules were in place to keep hypergamy in check so most of the people can participate in the mating scene, with exception of the most extreme outliers.
We are in an entirely new territory now. The old rules were rendered invalid and the swing into the hypergamy needed a compensatory swing on the opposite side of the widened spectrum. The Game.
As for LTR, there are quite a few poster here that acknowledge its positive effect on their relationship, and not only the male segment.
Doug from Hawaii
“why should any man buy the cow when so many of them are giving away their milk for free?”
If you respect their actions, then by all means join them. But then you look mighty silly if you complain.
The content is great, but the writing style needs work. It’s clearly a Roissy imitation — it lacks the smoothness and, at the same time, caustic nature of the one and only.
A plea to Roissy: it’s ok if you farm out the content occasionally, but please at least do the final editing to these posts to add some of your signature style.
Thanks!
Anyone (male or female) in the unenviable position of being the one that is in the lesser position of control via numerical status/minus or plus will always have the situation of a minus perpetually juggling balls in the air to keep the plus happy while minus is always one point away from losing to a plus-plus and stealing away his plus.
All of that effery can be summarily avoided by dating down. You are the KING rather than the Prince. You make the rules rather than toadying up to someone who is higher status than you (and knows it).
Dating down shouldn’t be frowned on. If she has fairly decent genetics and isn’t obese, she can worship the ground you walk on and give you fairly decent offspring. Win-Win
The torture of being with someone hotter than you is indeed TORTURE.
There are men, who really do not like game. I have used game deliberately and effectively to improve my lot with women. I like the feeling of power that it gives me and I like the positive feelings that it creates in women. But I don’t like game. It does not just feel new and different it feels deeply out of step with my particular human nature. I wish this wasn’t the case, but for me it is. This is not a baby with the bathwater thing. Some of the softer more airy fairy stuff like ideagasms have helped my frame in useful ways, and little by little I’ve found ways to improve my lot with women without worrying so much about dominance and still being able to be the artistic pussy I am at heart.
Dream Puppy–
and you’d raised him with her….a type of man that is able to walk away from that situation deserves the red flag that he raises to most women. It just shows he is able to discard even the closest of bonds; a bond you could never hope to achieve.
Sure I agree, and said or implied so in my response to you above.
A woman’s SMV is almost entirely determined by her objective looks; her self-awareness (namely, her perception of what her own SMV is) does not have any effect on those looks and thus doesn’t touch her actual SMV. This gap between actual and merely perceived SMVs leaves room for a third, and potentially desirable, alternative:
The overly self-critical hot girl, perhaps a.k.a. the Beautiful Waif/Neurotic. The more neurotic — especially the more perfectionistic and idealistic — the more her self-defeating (auto-Game?) psychology may cause her to respond to reverse Game. A man’s only got to Game according to the girl’s own assessment, not reality.
This might only work in principle, though, and relationships with depressed or unstable chicks can get ugly. Sad; the only live chance for a mixture of humility and beauty in a female is probably limited to ones who fall under a DSM category.
”””””The torture of being with someone hotter than you is indeed TORTURE.”””””
If she looked like me it would be torture lol
If you respect their actions, then by all means join them. But then you look mighty silly if you complain.
reading comprehension, huh.
R doesn’t “complain.” He merely points out observations of our current decline and the source of this de-civilization.
R, like many of us, recognize that the decline is in full swing, and it’s not going to be reversed…so what the hell, enjoy what you can, while you can.
Nobody said decadence wasn’t fun.
One can enjoy drinking with abandon at the party…
…and still point in the midst of revelry, that tomorrow the hangover WILL be terrible.
That’s not hypocritical…just observational.
Gorbachev–
It’s almost so facile as to be not worth mentioning
It is worth mentioning though because feminist propaganda which everyone swims in in America and the Anglosphere is so much against male dominance. Including in intimate relationships since “the personal is political”.
As well the hottest sex almost always begins outside the bedroom, gaming her first even in a LTR. Having a playfully dominant edge most of the time with her is also part of it. This is of course anathema to most feminists. They may like it when it’s actually done to them but you’re best off not calling it dominance for a good while at least.
GOLDENEARINGRADARLOVE, The Game is a roadmap, not a religious edifice that you have to faithfully adhere to in all its forms. Take the parts that suit your goals and personality. Its application if is flexible.
The only important part is what it reveals about female psyche and the overall frame how to deal with it. The rest is an application that is changing based on circumstances and goals.
Its application if is flexible.
Skip da “if”. THX
Haters have a lot in common with fundamentalist Christians.
They completely misunderstand allegorical subtext.
Ignore reliable evidence which contradicts their worldview.
Conflate fortunate exceptions with rules that are true and very full of proof.
The school of game isn’t an assault on masculinity, nor is it misogynist. Anyone who thinks so has missed the point entirely.
huh–
If you respect their actions, then by all means join them. But then you look mighty silly if you complain.
Here’s the simple stupid version for you:
Pump and dump the sluts, or have sort flings with them or make them fuck buddies.
Have medium term relationships or long flings with semi good girls who you’re helping corrupt. Up to her whether she then goes slut after she can’t take it that you won’t really commit.
Marry only good girls. But then only with a prenup that financially mimics living together in the event of a divorce.
Need some game advice:
Long story short – supposed to be going out with a girl for drinks tonight; she’s a friend of a (female) friend, I’ve made out with her a couple time while drunk (circumstances where odd). She’s a 21 year-old LA 8.5, maybe 9. I’m a 28 year old professional with a fair amount of status, and I’ve gamed her a good bit in a long-con sort of way.
Last time I saw her I told her we were getting drinks tonight, she agreed. Two days ago, I confirmed with a text of “[bar] weds at 9?” She replies with “I can’t make any promises bc that’s my girlfriend’s b-day :/ but if she isn’t doing anything, then yah.”
I take this as her pre-priming the flake, but I think this can still happen. Now that tonight is the night, what’s my next move? That is, how do I confirm her coming in such a way that it doesn’t just guarantee she won’t?
[Editor: you could just assume the sale.
“see ya at 9.”
Or you could get a little tricky and wait 15 minutes before you are supposed to meet (make her sweat a bit) and text this:
“Hey i’m running late. 930 ok?”
The second option forces her to reply. If she doesn’t reply, you know she was going to flake, so you’ve saved yourself the hassle of schlepping out there.]
Game HATE is a lot like when people say… good products don’t need marketing they just sell themselves….
i just find it interesting that on a daily basis we can get ‘gamed’ on everything else (buying stuff, voting for people) yet refuse the idea that getting gamed in dating is possible…..
pick up a book on sales/marketing/politics/or consumer behavior and you’ll basically see the equivalent of game… (ex Influence by Robert Cialdini)
I spent an entire semester in one marketing class learning out how to sidestep people’s ability to carefully scrutinize products and just make them rely on peripheral cues alone….
H Morgan: You need to demo you have better things to do than wait around for ‘maybe’ girl. Make other plans.
It’s a loss in the short-term, but with an eye on the long-term goal.
Others can correct me if I’m wrong.
I mean the ideal situation is her sitting around at home wishing she was more decisive with her reply, being bored out of her mind, wishing she was with you.
Training.
Thanks for the replies. I’ll likely go with the “running late” option. It wouldn’t wind up being a trek for me either way; I live in area with a ton of bars in walking distance and my favorite, that she hasn’t been to, is literally across the street from my place.
I’ll report back if there’s news worth printing.
Whoa, Steve Sailer on e-game: http://isteve.blogspot.com/2010/09/making-effort.html
I don’t know if I agree.
And there seems to be an implication that white dudes don’t have as good a game as latinos.
My perfect game ever happened on a steamy, summer New York night. I was just walking out of a Night Club and I was admittedly a bit tipsy. I staggered to my car when I spotted a gorgeous girl in a red dress that seemed to glisten under the lamp light. She was by anyone’s standards a solid 9. Perfect, slim hips, tall, exuding elegance as she stood there with one hand on her hips and pulling up one thigh stocking up to re-attach to her garter belt. I locked eyes with her as her head tipped up and as we gazed into each other’s visage I realized this was the one for me. She stood up and straightened out her dress which had sequins. She looked like a movie star. Stunning. She flung her beautiful flaxen hair back in a come hither way. My erection came of out of nowhere. I was now entranced. This vixen had me in her sights. I waved to her to come to me. She waved back for me to come to her. I, like a smitten fool…followed the trail to that lamp-light she stood under as I whiffed the faint scent of her perfume that had still lingered on her trail. I approached her with genteel caution and she held out her hand to mine. She grasped it and almost crushed it. I winced a little but carried through with my game. It was on this closer inspection that I noticed she had a bit of stubble on her chin and upper lip. But, her lips were luscious and painted bright red which distracted me from the aforementioned. Her deep brown eyes were limpid pools of love. I wanted her then and now.
She grasped my boner like a quarterback grasps a football. I was frightened and intrigued even as I felt my balls almost pucker up into my asshole. She said in a very low, actually REALLY low voice, “50 bux”. I had misjudged my sweet angel, my sweet succulent kitten. I though she wanted ME. No, she wanted my wallet. I was so hard by that point though, that money was no object, just my cock. She told me she only did head or back door. Back door was 100 bux. I thought…what the hell? I’ll take the back door for 100 dollars. She followed me back to her car. She smelled like coconut oil and after shave. A strange exotic scent. What can I say? I had a phucking boner!
She bent over in the car and pulled down her tighty whities. I spit on my member and started to ram it into her back entrance. Her surprisingly muscular arm reached around and grasped my nads as I thrust deeper. I came like gangbusters and hollered like it was my first orgasm. As I held on tight to her firm, muscular ass in the afterglow of my incredible release, I, with my head still lying on her back asked, “What do I call you?” and she replied in a rather low, sultry voice, “Frank.”
And Frank broke my heart for what could never be. I still cry to this day about it. *wee tear*
This, my friends, is why I never try to upgrade.
Just thinking a little philosophical, but i wonder what will be the outcoming of game?
If the purpose of it is ultimately to breed with the most attractive woman you can get, then the children will be pretty and smart. I am assuming smart, because a lot of guys trying to use game, have at least some degree of smartness, i don’t think it’s that easy to understand some of the reasons why game works (evolutionary psychology, self actualization, etc). Then maybe the game is a tool for the smart masses, but somewhat clumsy about women, to have a chance to reproduce, and also with an “attractive” woman.
Anyway, just thoughts.
Bhetti
And there seems to be an implication that white dudes don’t have as good a game as latinos.
Simple answer is that latinos haven’t been feminazi-pussified yet. That factor alone makes all the difference. I’d argue that in the past (more than 50 years ago) white dudes had an advantage over latinos.
Well if you missed all those cues it may have been your true love he he he
Pro, your over thinking a little bit.
First and foremost, Game is basically de-programming the institutionalized indoctrination of misandrist and feminist propaganda that permeates our culture.
Game is not really the response to feminism.
It is the key to breaking free from the mental and spiritual emasculation program of the feminist paradigm that has taken hold of our culture.
Game is recognizing the true nature of female sexuality – hypergamy – and how that affects interactions with all women…not just those for which he’d like to have sex with, but all women.
But in order for it to work, a man must be honest and realistic with himself. He needs to be willing to face rejection. And above all, he has to learn from mistakes and adapt his own behavior and thinking.
Pro, yea, I agree with Dave that you are overthinking it. Also, there is one main imperative: If your dick does not turn into a bonner, your chances of reproducing are diminished.
Attractive woman = boner.
Unattractive woman = no boner (or barely functional member)
It is as simple as that.
All this “this isn’t Roissy” talk is misguided, and somewhat annoying. Roissy hasn’t changed his views on any matter, and the writing hasn’t deteriorated.
If he started praising the Feminazi movement or saying how we should all be ourselves, then I would be worried. But the message of Roissy has not changed. So the disputes over the provenance of the website miss the point.
In my case, this website has taught me about the true nature of women. It continues to do so.
_____
Dave from Hawaii,
Good point about Game being the unlearning of bad habits. And even in a relationship, it’s very important.
Beta of the week nominee:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/British-MP-s-wife-is-a-sex-worker/Article1-596677.aspx
And there seems to be an implication that white dudes don’t have as good a game as latinos.
It’s my understanding that latino men don’t hold their job/career as their sole means of identity. I don’t know if this is correct, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that latin men derive their source of masculinity from sheer notch count, and this alone makes a man an alpha. In other words, a garbage man can be an alpha is he getting all the best poon. His career is secondary, if it even registers at all.
Then again, latin america is basically very poor. latin men couldn’t get careers even if they tried; there are none.
Dream Puppy would be the one to ask about latin dudes.
@Gorbachev
@Anton
@what
@Doug1
“”“Doug1, however, is right on. “I want to be your sex slave” is so commonly uttered by girls after sex as to be a cliche’.””
“Virtually all of the women I’ve ever been with with very few exceptions have wanted to be “taken”, to swoon to a more powerful man. Only a few, and only occasionally, have wanted to be in the more powerful position.
Long, slow lovemaking versus being taken and enjoyed by a more powerful man? One is fine, but being taken better at least be possible. I’ve heard this from many women.
It’s almost so facile as to be not worth mentioning.””
Okay!
….btw where is Nicole…I need to hear her say something!!haha!!
what,
Don’t wait for Nicole to say something. What do YOU say?
True? Do you want to be swept off your feet?
How does one get over the angry phase? I still walk around and want to punch in the face any chick that shows interest.
Removing the scales from my eyes has led to nothing but furious rage, game tinted glasses has made everything turn black.
@Morsellaux
“Don’t wait for Nicole to say something. What do YOU say?
True? Do you want to be swept off your feet?”
I was only joking about Nicole! Don’t you know me yet?
Swept off my feet? why? you want to?
Dave from HI, The Game is not only a reprogramming. Though that was the main purpose at the beginning when the core has been put together and publicized, it has a potential to change the fucked up ways of our society if it is adopted by a wide segment of men. In that context, it would function as a factual counterbalance to feminism and prolly result, in a long term, in correction.
Johnycomelately,
You need to get over it and accept women for what they are, not what you ideally want them to be. It isn’t like the nature of men is all that great either.
Pro, on an evolutionary scale, we are all screwed because women can abort or use birth control or the morning after pill.
So, in order to even have a child at all, you have to really woo a woman into wanting to keep your seed.
it has a potential to change the fucked up ways of our society if it is adopted by a wide segment of men.
No chance.
Right now, Game is a by-line in pop mass media culture. A joke. Something said in jest and in ridicule.
The image right now is Mystery in a feather boa, or Tucker Max and his secretive tapings of butthex.
But as it gains more and more traction and starts to be seriously recognized by the wider culture, the feminist-Government-media complex will simply adapt their authoritarian juggernaut to stamp out any reversal of the status quo.
For instance, “palimony” as more men refuse to get married with their live in girlfriends.
what,
Do you, or do you not… want to be swept off your feet …. on this day… ( that last part–kidding)
Yes/No
Me? I could only be a facilitator of the sweeping off the feet deed. 😉
If the inner want is present, I could oblige.
(Caveat–if you are a continent away, that may prove to be a deal breaker, but I could take a rain check).
“Or do they really believe the idiocy they preach? Are they… TRUE BELIEVERS in the conventional wisdom school of JBY (just be yourself)? Is it possible, in other words, that in their own lives they met and fell in love with men who won them over running NO GAME AT ALL, natural or otherwise?”
Well, most women probably believe in JBY, since it’s what works for them. If a girl is young and pretty, the gentlemen will all line up to compete for her affections. No more effort is required on her part. For guys (natural alphas excepted), it’s a different story.
I’m gonna start reading more, in an attempt to improve my conversational skills– not for interesting topics to discuss, but as a model for how conversation should flow. Any recommendations? My first thought is romance novels.
@Tim
As a latino myself, i have to tell you, that indeed there is a “macho” culture in my country. More correctly there used to be such culture, in the past women were only that: machines for taking care of the house and childrearing, also heavy doses of game i guess (physical violence was often), you still can see that very strong however, specially in rural areas.
Anyway, for more urban areas, we are now almost every day getting messages from the media, that we have to be more kind to women, also promoting messages about the equality of man and woman.
Also remember that latin america is a place for big contrasts, there is indeed a very large part of society that is poor and uneducated, but also there is medium class and rich, sometimes very educated (minority).
As for the career part, beta still works here, if you are hardworking (a rare trait here) you can still get a girl which doesn’t mind you are a beta (maybe even geek/nerd), she only looks that you like to work and you get a good pay, however these kind of girls are also slowly disappearing (american/feminism influence?).
what, I just checked my schedule and I am booked for this year. I have one sweeping of the feet appointment in Italy. Next year, I see if I can fit you somewhere, ‘k, but no promises! 🙂
@Morsellaux
How long did it take you to come up with that?! hee!hee! haha!!
@ Cactus cooler, most of us normal women love men and want to bear their children and raise them w/ the man. like in a family unit, one of those old, old ideas that everyone pooh-poohs as non-progressive. On the other I share in the concerns of not getting married b/c marriage is for the strong stomached, tough, rugged types who can handle that kinda life.
no serious woman would want to abort, or RU486 them via that pill. I am in the pharma industry I will have 2 do a post about that morning after pill. its nasty, but effective. dangerous stuff.
moving on:
this “be your self” thing Roissy/Chateau was saying about got me thinking. those who tell themselves that are saying to the world and to their hearts, “I accept being mediocre or just a regular person”. for those of us who want excellent, honor, big things, big dreams, to excel, hope for and pursue higher ideals….we never let ourselves, just be ourselves. there is always room to improve, levelup ones thinking and skills to be the best. Not to out shine anyone. but to shine with everyone who wants those same better things.
excellent post Chateau
Pro, seems that poison is spreading. Being kind (when earned) is fine and peachy with me, but the equality thing is a pure unadulterated horseshit. Qualification: equality of opportunity is what allows society to progress, equality of outcomes is a slippery slope to some form of slavery. I bet they mean the second type.
what,
You’re funny! But what is more funny is that it is true about my schedule! 😉
@Morsellaux
You’re funny too! and I believe you.
Mukluk, romance novels are the worst kind of guides to conversational proficiency!
Speaker coaching programs may be a better idea. See, it does not matter what you talk about, what matters is that you talk. Speaker coaching seminars would teach you how to thread, smoothly, the fragments of your presentation and how to respond to your audience. And not the least, how to build up your confidence.
You can adapt it easily for the Game purposes. And also have more job/work opportunities, you can’t miss.
The first post by ‘sdaedalus’ ABSOLUTELY correct.
I discovered it myself last year. Yes unfortunately, because I’m more or less a beta and have notice that ‘lower quality’ women can develop exactly the same entitlement mentality as a supermodel if given the same ‘beta’ treatment.
I think you’re right as this being one of Roissy’s weak spots. Not that it matters. He’s living his life in the way that suits him while knowing it’s wrong to pedastalize women. After some of the disgusting behavior I’ve seen from women, I’m open minded to game, but still skeptical of certain aspects for various reasons.
I’ve never been one to try to pin down human nature to some sort of point by point formula. I’m too wary of all the variables. And I’ve seen successful ‘gamers’ leave behind a lot of the philosophies and practices they learned from the likes of DeAngelo, Mystery and Strauss and form their own way of life.
Nevertheless, I’ve changed from my own experience, and can see kernels of truth in ‘game’, and am certainly not willing to give my power away to any woman again, no matter how nice she seems.
what, you are such a flirt! 😉
[sounds of a good natured, virtual spanking]
Lol at anyone telling people to “just be yourself”. I think Vin DiCarlo put it best when he said that the advice only works for people that were somehow born as superstar pickup artists.
Anyways, yeah, there are multiple kinds of haters out there. Some are the bitter females who don’t actually get how game works and think it’s just a bunch of glorified pickup lines that somehow magically seduce females.
These people can be safely disregarded. But what we can’t disregard are the haters who only got that way after trying out game for themselves and becoming disappointed. The reason we can’t ignore these guys is because they force us to look at the seduction industry as a whole.
And what we see isn’t pretty. “Gurus” telling people that with minimal effort they can go “5 for 5″, exorbitantly priced bootcamps and DVD sets, combined with the harsh reality that game isn’t necessarily a ticket to a land of abundant pussy with no rejections.
Here’s To the “being yourself” thing:
We are not stagnant individuals. We are all evolving, hopefully growing. With every new experience we hopefully will learn a bit more. As we all evolve, we will be incorporating and gaining new hopefully better, more effective ideas and ways of relating. Game is representative of one amongst many new repertoire we will learn to better relate or interact wit others. As we are evolving, we are still ourselves, only now we are an even better, more sophisticated version of ourselves. That’s what growth is all about.
Tier3,
Nevertheless, I’ve changed from my own experience, and can see kernels of truth in ‘game’, and am certainly not willing to give my power away to any woman again, no matter how nice she seems.
Important point: If you want to keep her nice, you need Game. A common mistake is that men think “oh, she’s so nice” and relax completely. Then they turn around and get harpy instead. For her sake, too, don’t make that mistake. She is happier happy. 😉
”””””this “be your self” thing Roissy/Chateau was saying about got me thinking. those who tell themselves that are saying to the world and to their hearts, “I accept being mediocre or just a regular person”. for those of us who want excellent, honor, big things, big dreams, to excel, hope for and pursue higher ideals….we never let ourselves, just be ourselves. there is always room to improve, levelup ones thinking and skills to be the best. Not to out shine anyone. but to shine with everyone who wants those same better things.
excellent post Chateau
”””””
There must be something in the water today.
You just gave the brave heart quality speech.
@Morsellaux
what, you are such a flirt! 😉
[sounds of a good natured, virtual spanking]
Thank you! no comment on the spanking! hehe!!
Matt T, that is why the Roissy’s blog does exist, to facilitate exploration, warts and all, of the Game. I can’t object to commercial aspect–the PUA biz–people should consider before buying that it may not be tailored for them for various reasons. The PUAMs should, though, consider that the gimmicky aspects are counterproductive in the long run.
Work calls, mout, until tomorrow.
PS what, you’re welcome.
Cheers Morsellaux, I’ll look into it.
http://video.adultswim.com/tim-and-eric-awesome-show-great-job/the-breadheads-meet-bread.html
[Editor: nice!]
This explains soooooooooo much about why my buddy married the girl he did. she is 1-2 points lower than him, and he had hotter women interested, but he was lazy, so he slummed it. I couldn’t understand it before, but by the Dark Lord, this explains it!
Dave from Hawaii–
For instance, “palimony” as more men refuse to get married with their live in girlfriends.
Yeah I’m worried about this. A contract still might defeat it.
It’s essential to keep up on the changing laws in your state.
Poster Huh?
Women don’t need or want a LTR provider. They have their own resources. So why not follow the tingle? Better to have a “sexy son” who will be an arrogant, aloof, and of course tall, bastard. Literally and figuratively. Really, what do they need some loser “kitchen bitch” for, after all?
Haters? Its all about female hypergamy unrestrained. Creating a very decadent world where Game is required in the first place. Most guys, even natural Alphas, would prefer just to be Betas (because it is far, far easier — Game requires CONSTANT effort). But that is death to sexual attraction, which rules pretty much EVERY female decision about men. See, Kitchen Bitch, Sandra Tsing Loh, the Atlantic, “Let’s Call the Whole Thing Off.”
Great stuff Roissy. And if this wasn’t the original, then this is surely #2.
[…] Roissy talks about the magic 3 month DNW (do no wrong) zone with girls.. […]
How do you guys know the writer isn’t roissy?? People were saying that yesterday too
Females don’t think. They have emotions which they rationalize that they pass off as thinking.
For the most part, men are also far from being totally logical, but I’m not trying to seduce men.
Excellent swipe at Obsidian.
@whiskey. “Most guys, even natural Alphas, would prefer just to be Betas (because it is far, far easier — Game requires CONSTANT effort)”
Not just constant, but CONSTANT effort?
There’s something wrong here. After a while, it should be internalised to such an extent that there is little to no effort; it’s you.
The clingy boring twat who doesn’t understand male-female dynamics is dead. It should just be a matter of snapping into the right frame. If you’re striving to “game” perpetually, this will look try-hard and inauthentic.
Many of guys seem to underestimate how intuitive women are at sniffing out incongruities. Lay back.
whiskey,
Look – you’re talking to someone who met her husband at University. One sexual partner, ect, ect… I’m a woman, so QED. (Of course, I don’t speak for everybody else, so your mileage may vary.) I knew what I wanted young, and I was lucky to find him.
And I wouldn’t say it was three months for the googly era. More like 3-4 years of can-do-no-wrong.
I knew several women my own age who wanted one romantic partner. I also have several friends who married their college boyfriend. Actually, most of my good friends from college married their boyfriend. All of them are still married.
Of course, if you’re not looking for a LRT, then never mind.
Huh, the length of can-do-no-wrong depends on your mutual status, e.g. what is your perceived position on the attractiveness scale.
Now, you seem to be happily married… you imply … so why are you here?
I dunno, you are in your 5th-6th year? Watch for the 7th-10th year–you’d start not recognizing yourself, unless you are a snowflake.
There is quite a lot of people here that want to improve their LTR chance of success, FYI. Your anecdotal “evidence” based on relationships that are in their inception (relatively, given what you signed up for) is documenting nothing else than these relationships are in their inception.
Yea, why are you here, that is the question…
[…] hotties on a regular basis, despite their claims to the contrary. If you feel like mailing it in, a fugly is your best bet. And even if you’re paying for the pussy, you’ve only got so much cash in your […]
Australia is doomed:
http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/lifematters/the-gender-myth-20100908-151d3.html
Checkout this comment:
I, a mere male, can even type, listen to the radio and breathe and be loyal to my wife at the same time. The social demarcation dispute protecting gendered territories isn’t going to tolerate this kind of thinking. I wish Dr Fine all the best on bringing objective science into this debate.
He might be loyal to his wife, but I’d bet that she was out trawling for Alpha cock while his fat mangina fingers were typing that drivel.
You know, women just like to think that games are childish and guys don’t need them to get a hot woman. The same woman, though, is shooting down every guy that isn’t playing games.
Highly insecure girls may rank themselves lower than they objectively are. It is possible your gorgeous girl might think she’s 4 points lower than you and trigger the negative game response. These are under 20 types with limited dating experience and outside the mainstream social environs. I get the “do you love me?” all the time.
Most guys, even natural Alphas, would prefer just to be Betas (because it is far, far easier — Game requires CONSTANT effort).
Most girls, even natural beauties, would prefer just to be plain(because it is far, far easier — appearance requires CONSTANT effort).
In addition to maintaining her appearance, keeping a nice house, being a good cook, being involved in the community, keeping up good relations with friends and family and being a good mom is also a lot of work. Women who excel at these things are often very hard working.
I see now how men do need to work at being alpha and it makes me admire them even more.
My friend is leaving her husband and she told me the reason is because she has lost respect for him. I do feel bad for him, especially since he has being trying very hard to change, but I understand how she feels.
direct her to diealonewithcats.com and buy her a jackrabbit vibrator as a condo warming present
i just shuddered at the memory of showing condos in maple glen, tract housing for divorcees–they should open one called Bathos Bowers
i can’t say i agree with this theory.
dana,
I know what you mean, but she didn’t make the decision lightly. She is trying to be very fair and reasonable about the whole thing. They are still living together. I don’t blame him at all for playing hardball with her, however, since he does need to look out for his own interests. She is in her 40′s and she seems pretty realistic about the realities of being single at her age. I think she would like to eventually meet someone, but she doesn’t seem desperate to at all.
When is the last time Roissy wrote in ALL CAPS?
Farming the work out is smart, but like another commenter said…please review and edit it first, so readers can swallow the pretty lie.
Nothing against whoever penned this, but it is clearly not on the same level as the true Roissy.
Hehe, dana, you are a decent painter!
Laura, well, hopefully he’ll trade his 44 for a 22 shortly and she would lead rewarding life with her private zoo and screamin’ in exstasy at her jackrabbit vibro: “You animal!”
He isn’t a bad person and I do hope he moves on and things turn out alright for him.
People will keep on hating on game to the end of eternity. The bottom line is that if you are keen observer of the outside world most of what you write about the dating market has profound truth.
A lot of people also don’t realize that like anything else, it takes a considerable amount of time to become proficient. Some people will say ‘oh look game didn’t work that time, that must mean it’s BS’ as in one fuck up by someone using game is reason to dismiss it entirely. Or they have some idea that game is about going out to a bar and spouting lines you get from the internet, ignoring the fundamental psychological/evolutionary that is the basis for why it works.
I don’t understand this false dichotomy between “game” and the “naturalists”. Can’t it be true that there are more than one way to get from A to B? I hate to split the baby, but I think that many different approaches are successful (so long as the guy has the balls to approach) because fundamentally, girls want to hook up with guys. Approach, approach, approach…the forces of nature are in your favor.
I have found that a natural personality that has internalized the psychological evolutionary truths as set forth by the editor is the best strategy, but I have to concede that both the contrived PUA and the aww shucks nice guy white knight also work for some guys. The all-out PUA gets lucky largely because of numbers and taking the initiative in approaching lots of girls. Nice guy white knight often gets lucky when the girl forms the idea that she wants to be with him, and his beta personality is neutral to her ambitions, or he finds targets that are receptive to that schtick.
PUA theory sometimes gives the impression that girls are passive chess pieces or automatons that can be moved around and push and pulled. Often, girls have their own plans as to who they like and what they intend to happen. I think most normal looking guys can think back to a girl or two who just seemed to fall in your lap (and I’m not talking about dumpster diving).
And the number 1 reason why so many different techniques work in bedding girls is that they want to be bedded! The editor’s graph showing the necessity of game is too cynical: girls like relationships, they are obsessed with their sexuality, and they want to hook up with men. Seriously, if the biggest douche white knight beta was forced to approach 100 girls within a point or two of his dating value, I think many would be shocked at how many dates he would get.
Laura, just get him on roissy blog pronto if you are communicado with him.
Laura,
What behavior or incidences does your friend cite when she says that she’s lost respect for her husband? Has he lost his job or otherwise at a dead end with his job? Has he let his body go?
Does your friend have an interest in another guy?
Morsellaux,
Married 15, been together 20, met at 18 and 19yrs old.
I’m here because I was curious after reading links from Megan McArdle’s blog and the consequent furflumph. I don’t understand the contradiction between the type of relationships some men wanted (monogamous, a virgin, or near virgin, long term marriage) and the consequent behavior of men on this blog.
I didn’t understand all of the admiration of the 19th-early 20th century WASPy solid relationships from the WWII era, because readers indicated a reluctance to walk-the-walk of our great-grandfathers. In fact, a promotion of “cad” behavior was encouraged, which would have appalled my grandparents. I think it’s all very interesting. (That said – there are a lot of different people are on this site – clearly there’s more then one type of behavior/viewpoint.)
She lost respect for him due to his drinking problem. As far as I know he has stopped drinking, but it was a problem for years and she’s just had enough. I don’t believe there are any other men, although I think she would like to meet someone else. She told me she doesn’t think she would ever marry again, though.
Sidewinder, true, it is a numbers game. But with Game, it has kind of a funny algorithm. Initially, there is a high ratio of approaches to scores. That is the modus operandi for a chunk of time when something (cumulative experience and confidence levels buildup) flips the switch, and then the ratio reverses, one actually may be forced to implement elements of anti-game, to deal with the excess of poon offering itself with almost no effort on the Game player part.
The WK method may work for the short run, though I venture to predict that the ratio of approaches to scores would be higher. Also, the WK may tend to end the process at the first score, being a “nice” guy.
However, in the long run, the WK that is essentially primed for LTR will almost inevitably end in disaster, while the Game player would be almost inevitably able to form long lasting or permanent relationship if he chooses so.
The Game is a better long term strategy.
His drinking has affected both his job performance (although he did manage to make it to work most days) and his health.
laura
well that adds a different angle. that’s actually the story with the man i was engaged to before my current marriage. he was a good, decent man and i tried so hard to pretend his drinking wasn’t a permanent fact of life. he was never abusive or bad, just a heavy irish drinker and he was never going to change. i beat my head against that brick wall foolishly for 8 years BECAUSE of his decency and goodness and my genuine liking of him, respect for his hard work and basic values. but theres no doubt that our engagement was a last ditch effort to save our relationship–we had the rings and license and everything. i was still young and trying to “change” a man–had i just let go of trying to stop him at any point in our relationship we probably could have been fine–but i couldn’t, i wasn’t able to be that person anymore than he was able or willing to stop drinking.
Laura,
This doesn’t sound like a alpha/beta or female hypergamy problem, but the much more common scenario of a dude f’ing up. I know a lot of guys on here love to cling to the illusion of hypergamous women cuckolding their perfect beta husbands and leaving them for no reason whatsoever, but that fantasy doesn’t play out in reality. I’m not saying its always the man’s fault, and a woman can drive her man to drink or to another woman, but I’d still say its 70/30 the malfeasance of the man that leads to the divorce.
dumdum – hmm.. you might be right. at any rate, i’m sure da big R is enjoying our speculation on the supposedly defining aspects of his literary voice. and btw, what the shit was that video post that came down. don’t give your proprietors in training posting rights without vetting, yo.
huh, there is really no contradiction. The society has been unglued in such a degree, due to marriage laws 2.0, that naturally there would be a spectrum of approaches how to deal with it.
Many men would prefer the clear cut rules that existed before feminism inroads, after all, it worked for millennia. But those rules are gone. It does not make a sense to walk-the-walk when the deck is overwhelmingly stacked against you. No good deed of yours goes unpunished.
Thus more men are boycotting the marriage as institution/social arrangement. And since feminism pushed hypergamy (that was kept in check in the pre-feminism era) into a full bloom, why not take an advantage of it? And why should the natural alphas skim all of the cream? While the guys with lesser status should be left to dry and then maybe snatched at some point as beta provider, while they can’t be certain about their paternality and yet forced to pay for it till kingdom comes?
There is no contradiction. It is all rather simple. A continuum of patterns that respond to the social engineering attempts.
Sidewinder
but I’d still say its 70/30 the malfeasance of the man that leads to the divorce.
Aww, so nice of you to pull figures out of your ass (pardon my french).
What if a girl is just so naturally shy that regardless of her objective market value, gaming can still scare her off? This would require her perception of self to be severely deflated.
huh — the issue is that those honorable men of old were rewarded for their white-knighting with a loyal, virginal, feminine women who would be a supporter and a great mother; and yes, an equal within the household. Outside of the home, these men were given great deals of social respect.
Today, most western women are selfish, grossly entitled with miserable attitudes and no grace or charm, and a laundry list of past lovers. What a prize for the honorable man. Outside of relationships the honorable man is vilified by all minority groups and fringe organizations. He pays the majority of taxes yet is made to feel guilty about the ills of everyone else, as if he caused them. He gets LJBFed while the women he wants date badboys.
The way men act on this blog is not causing the breakdown in relationship structure; it is a response to it.
What if a girl is just so naturally shy that regardless of her objective market value, gaming can still scare her off
Game is tailored to the girl’s personality. Even if she is shy and doesn’t think highly of her looks, she still wants to be negged. In her case this will take the form of gentle and friendly teasing.
Sidewinder, here is something to chew on:
Who initiates the Divorce?
The National Center for Health Statistics reports that from 1975 to 1988 in the US, in families with children present, wives file for divorce in approximately two-thirds of cases. In 1975, 71.4% of the cases were filed by women, and in 1988, 65% were filed by women.
According to a study published in the American Law and Economics Review, women currently file slightly more than two-thirds of divorce cases in the US. There is some variation among states, and the numbers have also varied over time, with about 60% of filings by women in most of the 20th century, and over 70% by women in some states just after no-fault divorce was introduced, according to the paper.
Custody
In their study titled “Child Custody Policies and Divorce Rates in the US,” Kuhn and Guidubaldi find it reasonable to conclude that women anticipate advantages to being single, rather than remaining married.
When women anticipate a clear gender bias in the courts regarding custody, they expect to be the primary residential parent for the children and recipient of the resulting financial child support, maintaining the marital residence, receiving half of all marital property, and gaining total freedom to establish new social relationships. In their detailed analysis of divorce rates…
src: http://raleigh-divorce-lawyers.com/nc-divorce-laws/divorce-statistics/
And here is a take of a woman as to the causes of divorces:
http://womensinfidelity.com/divorce.html
You see, PA, I grew up as a very shy wallflower nerd who hid behind books because it was easier to do than to deal with people. Lookwise, my features were awkward, and eventually evolved to somewhere between a 6-7.
Since adolescence, Ive made the conscious effort to learn how to talk to people, and the progress made is something I can feel proud of. There is still a problem area…
The second a guy I like walks into the room, I freeze up so badly. I start sweating, my face goes red, my mouth clams shut, and my first instinct is to run away. It is hard to rationally justify this physiological behavior. Often he wouldnt really have the chance to talk to me to get to that stage of the dance.
As a result of this, my first kiss wasnt until the age of 21. Opportunities arose before that for sure. But my severe shyness interfered and dictated the outcome.
That being said and looking in retrospect, I think you are quite right. Gentle and friendly teasing is not intimidating, and creates a sort of rapport that makes one feel at ease.
The second a guy I like walks into the room, I freeze up so badly. […] I think you are quite right. Gentle and friendly teasing is not intimidating, and creates a sort of rapport that makes one feel at ease.
Exactly. This is true even with non-sexual interaction. Think the last time you saw a man who is good with kids. He will ‘neg’ the girl by saying stuff like: “hey! you’re cheating! no red crayon allowed!” or whatever.
Boys, on the other hand, don’t like to be negged. If you’re good with kids, you will build him up with stuff like “that’s really cool. Can you draw it bigger?” etc.
There is a trainer at my gym who is really good with Game. With hot female clients, he will go full-blast neg (while maintaining professionalism). He will smile and say things like “Come on, lazyhead, two more reps!” or “Hey — you waiting for me to tell you to pick that up? move, girl!” and she’ll be giggling and saying stuff like “hee hee, no way, I would NEVER tell that to my boyfriend tee hee!”
But with chubby, or self-conscious girls, I notice he is more gentle and low key, but still teasing them.
Girly Girl, I just waited for it when you finally break it out who the shy girl is. 😉
Even with a gentle teasing, chances are your reaction would be close what you describe. Describe your activities extra school/work, going out, etc. Also, any past or undergoing therapy. Since you are here anonymously, it shouldn’t make you uncomfy.
I did not need game to score in WDC in the 80′s and 90′s and I did better than Roissy.
Then again, that was 10 years ago, I was extremely good looking, cool, hip, and surrounded by thousands of women every week.
dontmarry.proboards.com
@Morsellaux
In regards to the book.
I can tell you exactly how to keep your woman in love with you fuck other woman and tell her about it.
Never commit to monogamy.
“The problem with physical prowess is that you either have it or you don’t. Being tall or having good facial symmetry is something you have almost zero control over. The other factors are youth and health. ”
You can eat properly and weighttrain, though. The two make a world of difference.
Gun, don’t tell me! 😉
You don’t have to go whole 9 yards, though–if that is not your cup-o-coffee, if she knows you have that option at any time and it is up to her. Just the potential keeps her hamster occupied. And then, on occasion, go places without her and upon return keep her guessing and just listen to the whirl sound. There are other ways to feed her hamsters.
For instance when out with her, size up other females, ostentatiously. She’ll be protesting initially, but never give in, note something like “but honey, you have to admit that she has a nice rack” or the like. After a while, she’ll stop bitching and try to compensate with all her hamsters on a full runner, to be as pleasant as possible to keep you.
Lee Raconteur, you did not “need” the game because you had it.
“This is cut and dried. Want to “be yourself” with a girl? Date a warpig! She will put up with EVERYTHING and ANYTHING and never bitch once. You will need to put in ZERO effort to keep such a woman satisfied. No game, no nothing.”
i disagree with this. i’ve seen disgusting hogs who have been spoiled into actual full-on cockiness by dudes who treated them well.
i had a boss once who was a pock-marked dork (pretty alpha as far as managers go), but a decent catch for a warpig. his bloated sow of a wife would come into the office regularly to visit him and would ridicule and emasculate him systematically in front of his employees. any decent dude with some semblance of self respect and/or game would have slapped her back to her trailer – or, better yet, would never have given her the time of day in the first place. but this poor sap created a beast by treating her like she was actually desirable on some level, and she ran with it. she hollered at him so loudly and spitefully one afternoon that everyone in the office was red with embarrassment for him. i’ve seen it happen alot to dorks who didn’t date “up” like they should have. its no laughing matter.
be forewarned – dating a fat, ugly hog is NOT necessarily a low maintenance affair. just remember – if you’re a hopeless beta or your game is weak, its def better to be terrorized by a reasonably attractive chick who occasionally spreads her legs for you (maybe on your birthday) than to be barked at daily by some jiggly, aromatic vat of cottage cheese straight out of Shallow Hal whom you no longer have any interest in banging anyways.
I’d label myself a 7 with reasonably decent game. Have on many occasions availed myself of 5′s because they will do anything enthusiastically. And sometimes a month or two of that is just what the doctor ordered. Then give them their walking papers (not like they don’t expect it) and, with recharged batteries, its back to seducing 8′s.
Laura
My friend is leaving her husband and she told me the reason is because she has lost respect for him. I do feel bad for him, especially since he has being trying very hard to change, but I understand how she feels.
In my opinion she should get ZERO of his money. The bitch.
””’Morsellaux
”””
Whatever you hampster says he he he
@Morsellaux
“Lee Raconteur, you did not “need” the game because you had it.”
…and the assumption is that in order to get laid one MUST have had game. I was a nice guy, quoted as such by girls. Fish meet barrel.
I know no one believes me, but chicks were different in 1981. I saw the changes in step.
1984 – When the first Womyn’s Studies grads came out
1995 – When the Machiavellian will to power set showed up
2006 – The current iteration of the nightmare with most girls ex-strippers or such
I never thought I would be sentimental over 1981…
Change the color scheme to a liverish purple, put up, say, dear Cigstache w/o text and leave the comments open until the dregs have washed away. Come back in a few weeks.
After my divorce, I was one of the most eligible single guys and took advantage of it at the rather large company I worked for at the time, she was the newly divorced “company sweetheart”. Six months after her divorce while walking the halls, she stopped me and asked me, “I haven’t been out to do anything in forever, can you recommend anything?” Now, we just knew each other in passing, had never even had so much as a conversation. I knew also that she had been out with a few guys that I was familiar with but as the story put it was an “Ice queen (yeah right)”. I pulled out my cell, told her “Give me your number, I’ll call later and give you the names of my favorite places”. Bingo, called the next Thursday and set up a meeting in one of the little holes in the wall on the island I live on but what has some of the best little local bands playing on a regular basis. Met her, bounced her around different venues, vibed and DHV’d her but she was so nervous and ruffled that when I said goodnight to her, I didn’t even bother to kiss her. Didn’t contact her for three weeks, passed in the halls, had to visit her department, just smiled and said hello. Three weeks later I called her to come see me and the rest is history. Now I would say that on a value scale she is a shade above me, I know who is after her and her me. That being said, because of that, I have been running hard Game on her since we got together, but as of late (We’ve been together 2 years) it is starting to manifest in her behaving like she has value far less than mine (see the part of the post about being on pins and needles when you are not there). It’s not like this girl has no options, my friends and co-workers keep asking me what I drugged her with to make her so devoted to me and where can they get some. Can you go too far with an equal or even higher value female and lower her inner self value to the point where she starts to question whether she is good enough for you? Just asking…
Morsellaux, you have me figured out 🙂
There isnt much to tell. My activities are mostly solitary in nature, with the exception of salsa dancing. Soon I will be doing ballroom. The rest are playing piano, reading, writing, learning finance, gardening and cooking. Im a graduate student in mathematics.
Therapy, there is none of the professional nature. A community priest has been very helpful to me. Also, I study the materials by Dale Carnegie, Tony Robbins and Bob Proctor. My goal is to learn how to make other people laugh, smile and to erradicate these social issues.
I honestly think that the game haters take this too seriously. You really don’t need a woman for anything but sex anymore, all this running around and talking to girls is fun. I don’t see how anyone who is a man doesn’t have fun talking to women, even if I get shot down or flaked on, it’s still fun. We all are going to die so who cares? It’s too fun!
On another note, Dana has to be the most honest woman in the world. Hats off.
My problem with game is that it’s persistently and erroneously presented as the only possible method of having a good relationship with a quality woman (unless you’re rich and famous etc.). This is demonstratably false since there are plenty of normal men who don’t practise game and still have a good relationship with a quality woman.
Game only appears mandatory when you exclusively pursue highly dysfunctional women.
But marketing game isn’t quite enough for PUAs, because they also need to ceaselessly broadcast that anyone not boarding the game train is automatically a “beta,” e.g. subhuman scum. Roosh went as far as to say that anyone who can’t get laid at will should be murdered because he isn’t a real man (as defined by someone whose mental growth stopped at the age of thirteen).
If you weren’t constantly attacking people for no reason and making up blatantly false claims, you would have considerably less “haters.”
The question contrian is how do you make yourself one of the 50 percent of marriages that doesn’t fail and also stays happy so that your kids can grow up in a good home environment without having to be destroyed in the divorce regime?
Although your right that it is not that hard to get a woman for a lot of guys but do they have the experience to know if it is the right woman?
Contrarian, a certain amount of evangelizing is to be expected when gathering a herd.
That said, this is part of what independent thinkers are born to do: provide the perspective that helps to keep our respective favored causes and projects more balanced.
It is important that the face men of the movement take care not to alienate potential recruits. At the same time, coddling them overmuch is not a good idea either.
So where is the balance in this?
It is true that if a man doesn’t breed, his genes will not be passed to the next generation. Perhaps it’s better to not use “should” but “will”. If a man can’t get laid with a beautiful (which honestly in Rooshian means just young, truly feminine and not hideous) woman, then regardless of whatever else he does with his life, his fate is oblivion.
It doesn’t matter whether Roosh makes a morality out of it or not.
Is what you’re saying that he should have presented that fact without agreeing with it?
If someone like Einstein had never reproduced, he would still be one of the most famous people in history. Meanwhile, Joe Average can have as many kids as he wants to and nobody is still going to remember him. This is common sense.
I don’t see much value in passing on my genes. I could go and impregnate some random woman and skip town (which is what Roosh is likely to do one of these days), but so what? I would do more good and leave an actual legacy if I adopted and raised a child.
The “fact” Roosh is presenting is that anyone who isn’t successful with women must be murdered for not being a “real man.” This is as insane and indefensible as the Holocaust.
Contrarian, why not do both?
About Roosh’s hard line stance, I agree that it is extreme. However, I disagree that it is worthy of comparison to the Holocaust.
It’s closer to the mentality of primitive people who perform potentially fatal rites of passage. The idea is that if someone couldn’t make the cut, they shouldn’t be recognized as a man.
What would you think of it if the paragraph about combat had preceeded the one about euthanizing the shy?
I don’t believe that the shy should be euthanized, partly because there are so many reasons that guys are messed up today that are beyond their own abilities to control. I see the shy man as similar to the fat woman. There are ways they can help themselves, but in order to do so, they must defy their culture and embrace a lifestyle and habits contrary to what they have been told is healthy.
It takes a gigantic leap of faith most people aren’t prepared to make.
How would you get the point across that men today are missing something important…something that without it, they are pathetic creatures just existing, and not really living? How would you explain to men today that they are greedy, lazy, and overly entitled consumers of resources who don’t know how to hunt meat or women?
…and on the other side, being a man who isn’t a complete wuss, how do you keep your compassion for men who are wusses?
It looks to me like Roosh may need a compassion refresher, but I’d take care because he may interpret it as asking him to take pity on them.
“Why not do both?”
It was an example meant to illustrate that spreading your genes isn’t inherently useful, and that if you wanted to leave some kind of legacy you could do that without reproducing.
“However, I disagree that it is worthy of comparison to the Holocaust.”
There is no difference at all. In both cases you’re mass murdering people for arbitrary reasons.
“How would you get the point across that men today are missing something important…something that without it, they are pathetic creatures just existing, and not really living?”
Casual sex is not important by any stretch of the imagination.
“It looks to me like Roosh may need a compassion refresher, but I’d take care because he may interpret it as asking him to take pity on them.”
He is a hardcore sociopath, so it’s a little late for a “compassion refresher.”
Girly Girl, you intuitively (or maybe with a help of your priest?) picked up the best possible avenue — salsa/ballroom dancing — to overcome your problem. Not much I can add… you doing the right moves, it is a matter of time when your issue will melt away completely. Hopefully, you are also smart enough not to copy the current trends in female behavior and thus be able to form a long-lasting relationship. In that sense, your shyness may have had a silver lining in that it separated you from the herd.
contrarian
There is no difference at all. In both cases you’re mass murdering people for arbitrary reasons.
Hyperbole much?
As far as it’s known, Roosh haven’t mass murdered anyone.
Yea, he is a sociopath, but this comparison is a straw man. I know it is fashionable to use this kind of hyperbole, but that does not make it any less stupid.
As for your lack of enthusiasm to procreate–your prerogative. You, same as the uberhedonist PUAs that do not pass their genes AND participate in development of their offspring, will simply end your genetic lines. Others that see it as an investment in the future will be those that bring about new einsteins.
Contrarian, I think it depends on what kind of legacy you want to leave. Do you want to simply give the herd easier ways to kill each other quickly with war technology, or slower ways to kill each other by managing their suffering?
…or would you rather do that and make a mini you+whichever rare independent thinking woman, to ensure that there will be at least one more bred independent thinker in the next generation?
If your parents were normal, did you ever wonder what it would have been like if you had raised yourself?
Nothing I have ever done in my life has been as thrilling as raising my daughter. There have been times I have felt like Dr. Frankenstein.
About Roosh, I don’t know him well enough to say he’s a sociopath. I do think all leaders of movements have certain features resembling. I’m slow to apply such labels though. His taste is just…not stark enough. I don’t know.
I am curious to know why he feels the way he does about the shy. Maybe it’s leftover self loathing for the guy he used to be.
Alright, please explain why there is an enormous difference between mass murdering Jews and mass murdering people who are not successful with women. Presumably the latter is not so bad since my comparison is “hyperbole.”
Nicole, when a man wants to mass murder people for arbitrary reasons, you don’t need to “know him” to conclude that he is a sociopath.
Contrarian, I’m not defending his position. I’m trying to explain it.
Religious people all over the world tell people that they are going to die because they are sinners, and spend an eternity in a lake of fire for not believing in their favorite idol. Are they all sociopaths?
It is said that the more religious someone is, the greater sins he has to hide or suppress.
Perhaps Roosh is more religious about game than you because he started out more painfully shy, pathetic, and useless, by his self criticism, than you were by yours.
Perhaps he felt that he did deserve to die…or dreamed of ending it all…hoped that someone would be merciful enough to put him out of his misery.
…or maybe he didn’t live that, but he imagines that were he in that state, he would feel unworthy to live.
There are a few reasons aside of sociopathy, for a guy to say such a thing.
[…] it a step too far Posted on September 10, 2010 by Deansdale In one of his recent articles Roissy talks about dating down. He is of course totally right that if you date down you need less game. But he talks about […]
Contrarian, how many people Roosh mass-murdered? Give me the figure. I am not defending his lunacy that is in all likelihood a mask, I am pointing out that you equate something that has been done and something that has not been done. It’s like feminists calling all men rapists just because they have penises.
Nuts.
Arnold Schwartzennegger already summed up game in one sentence:
STOP BEING SUCH A PUSSY!
“cutting your name into her forearm”
hilarious!
Morsellaux, show me the post where I’ve claimed that Roosh has mass murdered people. You can’t do it because it doesn’t exist. You either know this, which means you’re deliberately trying to mitigate what Roosh said, or you’re very bad at reading.
”””STOP BEING SUCH A PUSSY!”””’
Yea I recently saw his old weightlifting video.
Interesting he is like talking about pump in lifting compared to sex so he get the feeling of sex from lifting and sex.
On same token he brings up when he was told his dad died during a tournament and he was like there was nothing he could do about it.
Which to extent is true.
When I went out to the grave though of my wifes dad yesterday with a crowd of people it again reminded me of why I wanted to leave a legacy of excellance in my current area of living as I will be remember after I am gona for what I do in this area the bad and the good. It makes me want to do the good and actually makes me really really want to build this place up and have something to leave.
It is like 10 years later and there where people praying at his grave and showing respect and my wifes tradition is to throw a big bowl of money into crows and make it fun he he he
Which now this is my second time seeing the man be honored for his past life lived. This kind of re-enforcement cements me to her and makes me want to be buried in the backyard more than anything else I have ever seen.
contrarian
Morsellaux, show me the post where I’ve claimed that Roosh has mass murdered people. You can’t do it because it doesn’t exist. You either know this, which means you’re deliberately trying to mitigate what Roosh said, or you’re very bad at reading.
he should know – the two are actually one-in-the-same person.
the frolicking pictures we know and love are of the roosh character – but taken in the 70′s
note the haircut, and the bucolic scenery – before Guatamelan and Bolivan Juntas took over
[…] Renegade: The Two Exceptions To Game, Tough Times Are A Bounty For Betas, and Why The Elites Prop Up The […]