“Anonymous” {WARNING: Possible Troll Alert} recounts a self-described nuclear neg he dropped on a girl:
Nuclear Neg made one week ago on an 18 year old has worked.
She had texted “We’d be together if you weren’t my mom’s age”.
I had texted back “Excuse me but, In two years, no guy under 30 will want you and by age 25, no alpha male under 40 will want you”.
She responded “WTF?!! In two years every man on Earth will still want me”
and then we text argued back and forth as I fed her some standard (and short) evo psych lessons which, when read or heard by an inteligent young woman, tend to tame the hamster well.
We ended the first text exchange with her admitting that she’d be no longer attractive to alpha males at age 25 but “that’s a long way off” and I was saying that her expiry date would be more like 22.
Cold silence between us ensued. I held frame and simply dated someone else.
Our mutual friends were aware of a cold war between us for the past week.
But we made peace today, first via text.
Me: It’s wrong to think I was trying to insult you by stating the truth about how the men of your generation will abandon you for the girls of the next generation
(I was still holding frame here – no apologies)
Her: Yeah, but it’s insulting even now that you want to rub that in
(she’s admitted that evo psych speaks the truth)
Me: All I ever wanted with you was to fool around a little like we did (she and her friends had hung around at my place and we sometimes made out) but not have sex because you’re not my type for that. But you made me believe that I was ugly and you didn’t enjoy that.
Her: You didn’t understand at all. I think you’re cute. I don’t just want sex with you. I enjoy the hugging and kissing too.
This complete submission floored me. It’s everything that feminists would say could never happen. They’d say I made the above exchange up. I didn’t.
Now I may have initially overreacted. The text that set me off only really said that she couldn’t imagine us publicly being a couple and me meeting her mother. But that’s what she’s saying now after I passed the shiite test.
I’m sure PUA experts will find I was quite rough around the edges in that exchange and I maybe wasted a week (in which I dated someone else, no man should ever waste time itself with any woman).
But whether it was necessary or not, the fact remains that I dropped more than one nuclear bomb on a girl who openly believed every man wanted to sleep with her, and the end result so far seems to be that she likes me better than ever.
For those readers thinking there’s a valuable game lesson to be gleaned from the above exchange, you’re right! Allow me to demonstrate what would happen 99% of the time if you followed a script similar to “anonymous”‘s.
You: {Dropping evolutionary psychology knowledge like a boss}
Her: {Blank stare. Trots off to meet a more fun guy}
Fin.
Using evo-psych to burst female delusion and ego bubbles, however logical or truthful or precise your scientific shiv, is a nuclear neg that will bomb you right out of contention. You are as likely to be perceived by a woman as spiteful and vengeful as you are to be perceived insightful and jerkishly aloof.
This internet castle in the woods revels in putting human egos on the breaking wheel and examining the viscera with a microscope, but don’t make the mistake of confusing the cruel dissection for the crimson arts. The former is the why, the latter is the how.
Women do not swoon for logic or reason. Nor are they easily persuaded by appeals to self-reflection. What women LOVE LOVE LOVE is to be seduced, and seduction is the art of dressing profound truth in pleasing lies. Pull back the curtain on the truth, and the reaction of most women will be to leave the scene of the thoughtcrime to find fluffier locales to frolic.
“Anonymous”‘s game does contain some useful grist. First, he may not be lying about how it went down, and her receptivity. My objection to his gom jabbar game is that, broadly applied, most men will experience negative blowback going his route. Unless your frame is immovable granite and your delivery enticingly entitled, and the girl you are hitting on is deemed sufficiently open-minded (or weird), a didactic exposition on male-female sexual psychology and evo-psych principles is liable to leave women cold.
General rule of thumb: Avoid using words like “alpha male” or “expiry date” in a serious manner when seducing women.
Second, the part of his game that I believe was most effective happened with this line:
“All I ever wanted with you was to fool around a little like we did (she and her friends had hung around at my place and we sometimes made out) but not have sex because you’re not my type for that.”
This is just a classic target disqualification line. No need to resort to evo-psych. He avoided the spite trap by first admitting (vulnerability game) that he did enjoy fooling around with her, and only after that admission did he disqualify her with the “you’re not the type to have sex with” line. A simple expectation-crushing push in her direction, and you’ve sparked her curiosity and inverted the male chaser-female chasee roles.
If gom jabbar game is your thing, I can tell you that it is possible to pick up women by verbalizing the intricacies of the seduction process, step-by-step fashion, as it is happening. But this is advanced game that shouldn’t be attempted by any but the most experienced and smoothly self-confident womanizers. Lesser seducers will be tempted to become too self-conscious and self-aware and thus ruin the illusion.
Likely that this guy didn’t care enough about her to bother dressing up the lies. In fact, his instincts may have told him to be blunt in order to head off possible future drama from her.
But this may come with a price, considering the vindictiveness of modern feminists who will excommunicate with severity any heretic.
I’m the reader. An important point there is that she wasn’t anywhere near my first choice and she knew I was dating others and had wicked standards. So Lovekraft is correct that, in this case, I didn’t care enough about her to dress up anything so I just told the truth.
And, of course, this kind of talk is the truth.
This tactic, always made without bitterness without breaking frame, always works unless you are dealing with someone who has been raised with feminism. Suckers who hang out with women raised by feminism have a harder row to hoe. That includes all of North America north of the Rio Grande and most of socialist Europe.
Heartiste lives in that feminist world. I was aware that he left that comment in moderation for awhile and assumed it was because it was alien to his experience and that I might have been trying to be sarcastic.
You definitely should not use a nuclear neg in most cases.
Heartiste’s idea of the “blank stare and looking for someone more fun” implied a situation where you definitely would not use it.
In fact, I probably didn’t have to use it in this case.
That said, Evo Psych isn’t, in general, a turnoff to a woman not raised and educated by feminists.
Don’t read too much into the merits of this approach. To you she’s a plate, to her you’re a guy she wants to land – the fact you made out with her, then she recontacted you after a couple weeks of the silent treatment tells you what the frame is and her position relative to you (keeping in mind she’s very young and doesn’t know what the hell she wants). You can get away with a lot, including dropping the bomb, when you very clearly have the upper hand in the relationship. Not sure if I’d groove on having that high of a level of dominance… the chase wouldn’t have a lot of thrill in it.
The admission that “she and her friends had hung around at my place and we sometimes made out” implies much more than a passing interaction with this girl. It’s my guess that the one week cooling off period allowed the girl to re-warm her vag after his evo-psych diatribe cooled it shut like a frozen hell.
My guess is that the reader’s own swanky place + status/money/looks could have led him to close the deal already without his evo-psych references. Plus there’s no mention of SEX ergo he still has 90% of the seducing left to go.
Reader’s game is C-, he over analyses and did not use a nuclear neg.
Agreed.
They made out, she felt like a slut, and then shit tested him with her text.
To her 18 year old mind, she gave up too much, too soon. Thus the hamster told her to pull back and recapture the power by writing a BS text about his age.
His straight up logical response was a fuck up, but she is maintaining communication with him because they have a mutual social circle and/or she is highly attracted to him.
You have to be like a classical composer, creating tension and resolving it artfully.
agree witht eh point that no sex means long way to go yet. He had a few things going for him, main one in my opinion is that he was being truthful to her and saying negative things to her that betas wouldnt say. so +1 there. Women arent used to losing arguements so well done on that point too, so +2, but none of this would of been possible if they hadnt had somewhat of a history, but idk, making out with a chick and not closing the deal, well, in my life i count that as a failure, less so if i close the deal later but i still consider it a failure for me. Some ppl on other sites have posted that is kinda the MO for the hot chick, to make out with a guy but not sleep with him just to kinda see him beta himself to see what she can get out of him. so +3 for avoiding that trap. last point is, you can say alphas or whatever to a hot chick, and it wont mean anything, so just say in 2-5 years you will not be able to attract the hot guys you do now because their will be a new flock of hot 18year old party girls. but anyways, props for sharing that post. And just curious, any developments?
She’s coming over more often to cook and watch horror films without her friends. With the hot weather, she’s wearing less and going further than before the shit test about me being her mom’s age. The incident also caused me to hit the gym a lot more to say the least. Meanwhile, I have a main girlfriend, she knows this. This one’s still a virgin, not averse to fooling around.
yeah, this was the equivalent of playing russian roulette with one empty chamber and still being alive at the end.
If a 1/6 chance of killing yourself is a thrill, think how much adrenaline a 5/6 chance will give you!
Talking about evo psych proves to be useful during the course of a relationship. Taming the hamster takes time and homepathic doses of evo psych can help. Talking about it casually without sounding hang up on the subject and spiteful like this guy can help more.
The whole exchange sounded like “fuck me or you gonna die alone”. That’s desperate and there are other ways to bed a woman.
This fellow Anonymous gets a D
You didn’t read properly and apparently assume it didn’t work. I’ll take a D and get the girl before I get an A for just walking away like an “alpha” (who allegedly wouldn’t do a hail mary play). Also, it was never implied that this was anything but a contingency move on someone who wasn’t the hottest in the neighborhood.
You’re doing the feminists’ work by translating the exchange as “fuck me or you’ll die alone”. Read exactly what was said. It gave her 2 more years of fun.
In fact, there was haggling in the texts where she was writing “I have at least until I’m 25 to date men under 30″. My answer was “No, maybe until 22″.
She was engaged in determining, for herself, what her realistic assessment of her market value was going forward.
With non-feminists, that kind of discussion, if not carried out with any bitterness, is stuff their own parents and grandparents have been telling them.
Guys who live among feminists have Stockholm Syndrome. They want to do their work for them.
Your best play, if you disagree with ever doing a rare nuclear neg, even if you are being LJBF’d, is to say “I don’t think it would work but thanks for negging that girl before I got to her”.
“Women do not swoon to logic or reason, only emotions”
Should have been pointed out as a maxim.
Yup – couldnt’ agree more. It should be a Maxim.
“women do not swoon to logic or reason, only emotions.”
You: {Dropping evolutionary psychology knowledge like a boss}
Her: {Blank stare. Trots off to meet a more fun guy}
Fin.
That’s exactly what I thought when reading anonymous’ comment.
It sounds like Jerry again.
Yeah, in my (non-PUA) experience, slamming a girl, especially with technical arguments may be fun, but it’s not going to get you in her pants. In this case, it’s not a neg, it’s just an insult. I had a similar exchange with a friend of a friend who seriously overestimated her own attractiveness. I’d flirt with her a bit when hanging out with friends, but one day she tried some sort of bitchfest shit test and tried to call me out for “hitting on her” and saying she would “never go out” with me. Stared her dead in the face, said “Two points:
1: Not hitting on you, I’m being nice, because I’m way out of your league.
2: You may think you’re hot, but you’re a solid 6 right now, and it’s pretty obvious you’re not going to hang onto that much longer. Your freshman 15 brought friends. ”
Yeah, might be fun, but doesn’t get you anywhere. Pretty well poisoned her whole group of friends for me too, once she got done exaggerating the story. Bright side, I’d already dated the attractive ones.
But those examples sounded bitter.
I’m the reader. I admitted she was going to be hot a few more years and could get anyone she wanted until then, although I would only want her for cuddling.
Plus, this is a girl who had spent many evenings hanging out at my place with her friends.
In this case her two best friends were over at my place cooking for me and agreeing with me that she needed to be put in her place.
None of these women had ever had exposure to feminist ideas. They hadn’t had a “Womyns Studies Course” yet.
Feminism teaches women to hate men for using logic.
Heartiste is mostly correct that game is not about logic, but he’s been stuck in the feminist world so long that he doesn’t see that feminism specifically encourages an anti-logic POV, or a “hatred of logic.”
In this case Heartiste is incorrect in implying that it might be a universal aspect of womanhood to dislike a guy for being logical about her true market place value. It’s mostly feminism that teaches such dislike.
It is true that bitterness and social awkwardness are universally disliked by women. You can’t do a nuclear neg unless you’re skilled enough not to get killed in the fallout.
Yeah, in my (non-PUA) experience, slamming a girl, especially with technical arguments may be fun, but it’s not going to get you in her pants. In this case, it’s not a neg, it’s just an insult.
Look up the “A” in “PUA.” You don’t quant-rush her with Excel spreadsheets, you establish your authority by giving her the smallest glimpse of the knowledge (power) she can’t see. That’s when her intellectual disagreements can become flirtatious. It’s goes from a debate-club exercise to her gradual, forced acknowledgment of your superior firepower.
You are no longer arguing, you are tussling, and like it or not, she will begin communicating involuntary indicators of submission so long as you hold your frame. When she “trie[s] some sort of bitchfest shit test,” it is a sign she is intellectually submitting and must go to more reliable weapons to keep up her resistance. Pass those tests and you will be in. She won’t like it, but you will own some real estate in her id.
I like the “freshman 15 brought friends” line. The “I’m being nice” response was good (not bitter, as the commenter above says), particularly because it was true. She was the one who mistook your discussion as veiled flirtation. There are plenty of ways to humiliate her about that, and in humiliation you demonstrate your power, and in the demonstration of power you provoke instinctive attraction.
The Tao of Steve was pick-up at its most cerebral and aloof before the game-boys took over the industry with their evolutionary studies and dorkish jargon. The first precept, Be Without Desire, is not given the primacy it deserves in PUAville. You truly had no desire to pick up this woman, it wasn’t just a trick of the mind, she was an uppity six. And that detachment allowed you more room to more easily maneuver her into place.
If a zen state of desirelessness can be achieved with women who otherwise make a guy nervous and sweaty, tens can be picked up as easily as fives. Women who are hit-on all the time have fine detectors for fear. A surprising fearlessness in a man is not just distinguishing by its rarity, it outright intrigues a girl who’s used to sloppy, slobbery suitors. All bets are off, she becomes a stranger in a strange land. Rather than going through her usual repertoire of anti-chump defenses, she is compelled by forces she is not used to managing inside her, making her the nervous one.
Matt
The time for talking about evo-psych, assuming you’re dating a girl with both hots and smarts, is after you’ve boned her a bunch & she’s already basking in the post-coital oxytocin glow, bonding to your masculine scent and presence.
Smart-hotties (who maintain their femininity) eat this shit up, and it definitely cements some bonds. Evo-pysch knowledge is a major DHV only *after* you’ve demonstrated that it’s practical knowledge wielded like a sword of justice, not just some armchair masturbation.
Dumb chicks won’t get it, don’t waste your breath. But then, for myself, I find the dumb ones are barely worth the effort. They’re certainly not all that enjoyable to hang out with outside of the boudoir.
Riiight…that was an extremely logical conversation to have with apparently the most self-aware *18 year old* in the universe lol
I say troll, or exaggerated/missing pieces of the story (his job is as an evo-psych teacher and she knows it, or they’ve had evo-psych conversations before, or they’ve known eachother a long time where this is like a field report of getting a makeout with your wife, etc), or complete Russian Roulette fluke that would have an extremely low success rate if applied on a larger sample.
I’ve verbalized game theory and the seduction process with girls and gotten laid with it but like describing it to normal AFC friends, I leave the nerdy lingo out of it.
All in all I wouldn’t recommend guys try this. Especially not on a co-worker…it’s really socially awkward stuff to say lol
Nothing big missing from the story. She and her friends had hung out at my place for quite awhile and knew I was dating hot women a little older than herself. She threw out what she thought was a compliment “We’d be a couple if you were younger” and didn’t expect me to see the backhand in that compliment and insult her back so hard. It’s a shit test when a girl tells a guy that he’s too old for her.
He’s got to respond with something non-bitter that tells her that, no, he’s not too old for her.
I wrote in that comment that I probably did not need to do this particular nuclear neg. She was only saying that we probably couldn’t marry or meet her parents, which doesn’t mean a rejection on other counts.
It worked. Her friends were on my side. It would be a mistake to do this with the wrong woman and get her friends all against you.
At least we can all agree that CH is doing this kind of nuclear neg on a mass scale via this blog.
She threw out what she thought was a compliment “We’d be a couple if you were younger” and didn’t expect me to see the backhand in that compliment and insult her back so hard. It’s a shit test when a girl tells a guy that he’s too old for her.
“I know it’s not fair but the fact remains that us men stay attractive longer.” –Onslow, Keeping Up Appearances (the only alpha in that show IMO)
Women will readily admit that they mature faster than men, and even that dating older men is far more common than men dating older women.
Exactly, and the direction I want to see the manosphere go is one where men aren’t afraid they will be rejected by women for speaking the truth to them about evo psych.
Because this CH blog is a big waste of time if we keep the truth all bottled up inside of us in some grand play to ‘indirectly seduce women with our secret knowledge of evo psych’.
Hotties can handle the truth better than older women can. That’s for sure.
In fact, ONLY a teenager can be nuclear negged directly like above.
But, it is OK, if a man and his girlfriend are out with her female friends and, if one of the girls says “that guy over there looks cute and rich but he must be 35 so he’s too old for me”, the man can politely and without bitterness advise his girlfriend’s pal that she’ll possibly be missing out on the chance of a lifetime if she doesn’t reconsider that attitude.
Rule #1 is not to be bitter and to maintain frame.
Rule #2 is to have a sample source of more than 1.
Run this on a dozen chicks and let us know how it goes.
I’m not afraid of telling women the truth. I’m afraid of men who actually think that telling women the truth will work.
up one comment ^
But, it is OK, if a man and his girlfriend are out with her female friends and, if one of the girls says “that guy over there looks cute and rich but he must be 35 so he’s too old for me”, the man can politely and without bitterness advise his girlfriend’s pal that she’ll possibly be missing out on the chance of a lifetime if she doesn’t reconsider that attitude.
I’m 30, and I run my game on college-age girls. In fact, I’d go down to 16 if it was legal in this state. My current #1 target is 18.
Another thing for guys to remember:
Of the college-age girls I’ve been with recently, only one questioned me as to why I was seeing her despite being considerably older than her. She was also a hard-core leftist from a broken family, and later got knocked up by a Mexican deadbeat. So judging from my fairly limited experience, “looking askance at older men” = “potential single mom”.
Yeah, I know it’s anecdotal… but it makes sense. Leftist women have the opinion that older men hitting on them is exploitation by the patriarchy, and are taught to consider it icky, primitive, backward, and violating the equality between men and women. Leftists ardently believe you’re supposed to be about the same age as your partner, to have similar income levels… well, to be “equal”.
Why is the age so important to you? This is one thing I have yet to understand… I would rather be with an attractive 25-year-old than an unattractive 18. Not that your 18-year-old is necessarily unattractive, but here’s a question: All things considered, if you had the same girl- this 18 year old, at two different ages. Looking at her now, and looking at her when she is 25, if she is still equally attractive, would you still prefer her at 18?
I’m not questioning your preferences, but I guess I disagree with the idea that younger is always better. I feel like the curve increases until you get to 25-26, at which point it plateaus, and begins to decrease around 28. Of course, my mother got much more beautiful as she got older. She married my dad when she was 25, and he was 29, and I always wonder if he saw something in her, like that she would get better with age. Maybe that’s why I have a hard time with dating so much younger than yourself, because I grew up in a family where my parents were so close in age. No one I knew who dated that much younger ended up happy.
Why is the age so important to you? This is one thing I have yet to understand… I would rather be with an attractive 25-year-old than an unattractive 18. Not that your 18-year-old is necessarily unattractive, but here’s a question: All things considered, if you had the same girl- this 18 year old, at two different ages. Looking at her now, and looking at her when she is 25, if she is still equally attractive, would you still prefer her at 18?
AZ, good question. I agree that older women aren’t necessarily unattractive, and that they usually don’t start obviously going downhill until they’re about 30. The thing is this: typically, by the time they’re 25, if they’re not married by then, they have almost always had at least one serious boyfriend who has imprinted on them. Oftentimes it’s the first bf they had in college who took their virginity, but it could be the one that they’ve been involved with longest. This boyfriend in the background problem will always be there. If you choose to get involved with such an older woman, you will find yourself having to deal with his legacy (which would include kids, among the lower classes).
There are some older women who have never been seriously involved, who have gone on a succession of dates without really liking any of the men, but they’re rare. This does seem to happen more among women of Irish descent, who have always married late.
Arizo: cause by 25 she’ll be my sloppy seconds and she’ll be thinking of me when you fuck her.
lol
Arizo: cause by 25 she’ll be my sloppy seconds and she’ll be thinking of me when you fuck her.
lol
Hah. +1.
Hotties can handle the truth better than older women can. That’s for sure.
There is no problem speaking truth if you put it in terms 1) that particular woman at that particular station in life will understand and 2) that do not tip off your behind-the-scenes nerdery.
If she is a young dullard, of course laying theory on her would be worse than bad; it would be weird. If she is precocious and attentive, you can show first and tell later. If she is older and smarter, you can pique her interest by making explicit the secret knowledge she only knows by virtue of the tingle.
Every precious snowflake believes she holds private thoughts that no man could ever understand. Every girl who grew up in the feminist age is primed, if not outright eager, to be made to say, “Omigod, how did you know that?”
But none of this is applicable without the artistry. If you cannot wear your knowledge lightly and finesse heavy concepts into terms she can grasp, you will make an ass of yourself. It is a high wire act promising great danger for amateurs.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/135113#s-p1-sr-i1
Matt
+1 for the Onslow reference.
You beat me to it. I never would have guessed to see such a reference on CH! That was a hilarious show.
Geoffrey Thompson Onslow?
Much, much too wordy.
I can’t believe that ANY young babe could possibly believe that the hour glass is running out – – until a decade has passed.
At every turn around her, she’s receiving affirmations of lust and value.
Much is missing if this account is remotely correct.
What you say is sadly true for the “Sex and the City” culture of the US, Canada and Great Britain. There, women often don’t get it that they might hit something called a wall until they are around 27 (and in SATC Carrie was 37 before she acknowledged the existence of a wall).
But I’m telling you that this is not the standard biologically driven psychology of most females.
Keep them away from feminists and they will see age 25 as the moment when the wall hits.
Note this girl argued in the texts that she felt she had until age 25 to win all the men. She was admitting that it would come early and we only argued about how early.
If she were an American feminist, she would not want to discuss such logic and, in the rare case that one would, she would use “equalist theory” along these lines:
“Sure, I’ll get less good looking as I get older, but so will you and I will still be dating men my age and you will still need to date women your own age, so you still lose”.
That is feminist logic. Any woman who uses this logic will certainly dislike the guy who is “too dense” to understand that “reality”.
But that’s only because the mangina culture she’s surrounded by is backing her up on this.
Take her out of that culture, put her among men who don’t think twice about reminding girls of the shortness of their SMV cycles, and when one more guy comes along who reminds her when she asks for it, she’s not going to be thinking that it’s him who doesn’t understand reality.
Guys studying or teaching PUA don’t need to “project” their experiences of living in the feminist world and think that it’s a natural part of being female to reject men for putting them, the girls, in their place, with logic or otherwise.
Cultures can and do convince 20 year olds that they will be old maids if they turn 21 without a husband.
“Guys studying or teaching PUA don’t need to “project” their experiences of living in the feminist world and think that it’s a natural part of being female to reject men for putting them, the girls, in their place, with logic or otherwise.”
I hear ya, and you not being in North America makes your report make more sense, but you have to understand that most pickup info is written for guys who are stuck in countries with the Sex & The City culture. The same way someone teaching boxing is going to be teaching you how to beat a boxer, not how to beat up a kid who’s never taken a swing in his life.
It doesn’t matter if that’s not how they naturally are, you have to deal with the reality of the how the situation is, not how the situation would naturally be.
I wouldn’t say there isn’t anything we can learn from your report, if we travel to whatever country you’re in, but I’d say your experience isn’t applicable to the majority of guys reading this blog is all.
Thanks for clarifying your report though, the details make it make more sense.
“I held frame an simply dated someone else.”
If every man in America could grasp that one simple concept, the world would be a better place.
Hmmmm….
No 18 y/o girl is concerned with the realities of fading beauty and mortality. You might as well explain evo psych to a lamp post.
I don’t care how dumb or self conscious a girl is there’s no way you can get an 18 year old’s hamster wheel to spin about losing her looks by age 20.
Dig: “We’d be together if you weren’t my mom’s age”
Retort” Nah. We’d be together if you were more sophisticated”
That would have been a better answer, Evil Alpha, except this one worked as well. She does have a sophistication problem.
Bill, again, it’s mostly in a feminist (or other matriarchal) environment where it’s “impossible” to teach an 18 year old that she will lose her looks by 20.
You can define matriarchy as a society where that’s “impossible”.
In a patriarchy, they will be worried about not getting married before age 23 or sooner.
Which is the U.S.- a matriarch or a patriarch society?
A lot of people talk about how everything is going down the drain in the U.S, but I happen to love it here. It’s a wonderful blend of both patriarchy and matriarchy. While most people here don’t consider 23 to be “the wall,” it’s often considered 30 by many women. There was an episode of Friends where Rachel was turning 30, and she was freaked out because she had been planning to be married by 30, and have 2 kids by 35. A lot of women feel that way, and I agree. Everyone on this site seems to be arguing that the wall should be considered 25.
Personally, I think 30 is a good age. A while back, heartiste wrote a post reguarding a study on how people who got married young were more likely to get divorced. I believe he used the example of a 21-year-old and a 31-year-old. A 21-year-old, he thought, would be more likely to get a divorce because she would feel like she still had options, and could find someone else. Wheras a 31-year-old would realize that her clock was running out, and decide to stick it out instead of getting a divorce.
[heartiste: options = instability.]
She had texted “We’d be together if you weren’t my mom’s age”.
Reply: “Your mom was a good lay, but let’s talk about you now.”
Is it still a neg if you’re just expressing some cold, brutal truth?
Let me answer my own question:
I guess it depends on intent — to edify or insult?
P.S. Anonymous, ironically, you’re dangerously close to being in the same box as one of her gay male friends; not fuckin’ and snipping at each other for entertainment. Just sayin’.
Heartiste is gold but too many fucks misapply the knowledge he drops. You’re not a special snowflake just from reading a blog.
P.S. Anonymous, ironically, you’re dangerously close to being in the same box as one of her gay male friends; not fuckin’ and snipping at each other for entertainment. Just sayin’.
Gay guys, from what I have gathered, get practice fucks from their fag hags a lot. CH had some post up about male animals that imitate females to get laid, and suggested that being gay is a way for omega humans to do that.
“Anonymous” {WARNING: Possible Troll Alert} recounts a self-described nuclear neg he dropped on a girl:
We could call him “Teal Cross” Anonymous, based on his gravatar.
Some PUAs have experimented with pretending to be gay to girls to get in their pants, just to figure out the whole “can gay guys get laid?” thing.
It works lol
And we know the reasons why now (lots of Secret Society concepts and non-judgement concepts involved, their ASD never gets triggered by gay guys) but those guys were just fucking around for the sake of getting the knowledge/perspective of what’s going on in that dynamic, no PUA school really recommends pretending to be gay as a tactic lol
CH had some post up about male animals that imitate females to get laid
Anyone who stoops to those tactics is metrosexual drifting past bi, skating close to the cliff of homo. Truly, this I will do anything for pussy mentality is a desperation that must inevitably devolve into a horror show without adopting reliable principles beyond vag hoarding. Like a guy who’d “suck just a little dick” — cuz hey, his girl thinks it’s “kinky” — being surprised one day to find himself bottoms-up on a gay porn set. Don’t worry, bro, no homo for crossing swords and dangling scrote as long as a female perineum is between our DP. Talk about a slippery slope, aided by astroglide. Imitating the fag is a Gayway Drug.
Game needs to be rescued from metros. I mean: actually doing these things, whatever, you’ve already gone to the dark side. But rationally contemplating the deployment of these strategies on purpose? It corrupts rationality itself. A man simply do not envision these matters as possible, much less useful, much less desirable — unless there is something already queered within him. Men do not witness gayness in their midst and shrug. They twinge and taste vomitus, unless the acute revulsion factor has been weaned out of them by the forces of “toleration.” And here you go beyond witnessing to outright imitation.
A garden without discrete boundaries is a jungle, first allowing the seeds of the wild to take root, and eventually being overrun by weeds.
Matt
I don’t just want sex with you. I enjoy the hugging and kissing too.
Filibuster.
Automatic NEXT.
If she would have said, “I just dont want sex with you” that would be an instant NEXT, but she apparently said, “I dont just want sex with you”, meaning she wants sex and more. I dont see that as NEXT worthy.
I’ll be the first to admit she’s still too young to know what she wants, but she’s still coming over to cook meals and fool around and more often without her friends. She knows about the main girl I’m dating and has to clean up any trace that she was ever at my place when she leaves.
if she’s open to kissing, you’re more than halfway there. your next barrier in escalation is the point of plausible deniability. once you cross that, she is in the bag.
“We’d be together if you weren’t my mom’s age”
The reply that comes to mind:
One day your daughter’s girlfriends will say that we’d be together if I weren’t their grandmothers’ age.
“I don’t just want sex with you.”
…or is it: I just don’t want sex with you?
“Using evo-psych to burst female delusion and ego bubbles, however logical or truthful or precise your scientific shiv, is a nuclear neg that will bomb you right out of contention.”
OTOH it’s a good way to deal with overweight feminists who think they are doing you a favor when they teach you how to deal with women.
I really don’t understand why everyone is so hung up about age here. A 10 is a 10 at any age.
I would rather bang 31 year old Natalie Portman than an 8 or 9 twenty year old.
Marrying or committing to a 30 year old where there is no significant age difference is stupid.
No one said that banging the pre-wall hotties is forbidden.
Yeah, this is how I feel also. Anon said it’s stupid to marry or commit to someone with who there is no sinificant age difference is stupid- why??? It doesn’t make sense. As far as I’m concerned, if you want the 30-year old, then you want the 30 year old! The majority here seem really concerned with making you feel like you have to want the youngest women possible, or else you are not a man. I think a lot of people don’t know what they want, and are really concerned with figuring out what everyone else expects them to want.
You’re not really bright, are you?
Oh… you must be the guy who sent in the email.
That reminds me: Charlize Theron is approaching 40, but she puts Kristen Stewart (15 years her junior) to shame in Snow White & the Huntsman.
The mirror was a big liar saying that Kristen was more beautiful.
If and only if you are planning to have children, then age does matter. But too young is also a problem: if you marry a girl under 25, you don’t know what kind of person you’ll wake up next to, in a few years’ time.
Gom Jabbar
God bless this blog.
The spice must flow!
Once again people are so concerned with the perfect witty comeback. Not everyone can run game like a Californication script.
“We’d be together if you weren’t my mom’s age”
When in doubt, go laconic Why do you dance to her qualification tune if you really have frame?
Easy responses : “LOL”
: “Totally.”
Or don’t take the shit test so seriously that “you’ve been challenged” and need to respond. This is the wrong mindset. She is just but another girl in the harem, don’t take her so seriously. Agree and Amplify, fallback number two.
Easy responses: “Kids these days, no respect for their elders.”
: “Pfft, I beat your mom at bingo at the senior center last week.”
Unless you got Hank Moody skills, falling back on Laconic/Agree and Amplify are the safest options. In other words, don’t swing for a triple when a simple single will do.
The vast majority of shit-tests I just shrug my shoulders and go “meh” or “that’s nice” and move on to some more interesting topic. Sure, it’s not rockstar level response but it’s a good default that works for me (I actually got the bored “that’s nice” response from girls who I would attempt to flirt with back in my massive beta nice-guy days).
“We’d be together if you weren’t my mom’s age”
Another one I just thought of:
“Oh, whew! I thought you were trying to corral me into a relationship…”
krauser Pua frequently tells a girl how exactly he is seducing her.
This is strong direct game and leaves a “who is this guy?” impression on the girl.
Do you think a woman can only fall in love a limited amount of times? Would love to hear Heartiste’s take on this.
Love is physically a drug (dopamine and oxytocine). If she gets addicted to some guy, and then he leaves her, I guess the next guy must give her a slightly higher shot of those hormones to make her fall in love.
So, harder drugs every time. There must be a limit.
A simple, “Women age like milk while men age like fine wine” text response would’ve sufficed.
The moment an exchange on this topic moves beyond simple one-liners (by text no less!), you’ve already lost. Sometimes, feeling the need to explain subcommunicates a loss of frame.
That line, while pithy, is still a grain of evo-psych ugly truth, which is what Heartiste is telling us to stay away from. Seriously, women indoctrinated in feminism will resist any frame of biological inequality between the sexes ferociously. Tread carefully and keep it playful by agreeing with their self-delusion/pretty lies in a mock sarcastic fashion.
OT: It seems like Wikipedia adopted the chateau definition of hypergamy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy
“Some evolutionary psychologists believe that women exhibit mate-selective preferences for spouses who are greater than them in terms of attained physical attractiveness, educational level, job status, social standing, and capital accumulation. In comparison, males would tend to place higher emphasis on the value of physical attractiveness in a woman alone”
A few months ago, hypergamy was defined only as MARRYING up to improve wealth and social status. Now it’s (a little bit) closer to the truth.
Step by step…
it all started in a little internet castle in the woods..
i went through that phase when i started learning game. i still got laid though because i’m fucking hot. reading “the way of the superior man” by david deida cured me of my need to use rational arguments with emotional thinkers.. ya know.. liberals and women.
W
The test about you being her mom’s age could been handled WAY easier.
Text: LOL ur thinking bout us together cute
done.
This is off topic and I’m not sure if this story has been discussed here before but holy shit it made me so fucking angry:
http://itsybitsysteps.com/girl-changes-rape-story-after-nine-years-dad-freed/
Reading this example of a man-woman dialogue is like eating a shit sandwich. It is that bad. I mean, The first rule of speaking to a woman, any woman, Is that : Assume she will never, and indeed cannot, ever understand the true and actual meaning of a simple semi-English, mostly Greek word — .Hypergamy. That way lies a waste of time….
This does not mean you cannot plunder your share of ripe, eager, young harbors in the storm.You just need to get out of your head that you can get there by means of logic, truth, sanity, or restraint.
I guess as a corroboration of this comment, I talk about evo-psych with girls every now and then. One girl that I talk to about it is actually a very good friend of mine who was a psych major and we would have interesting conversations about it. I would never talk like this with a girl I was interested in, it’s a bit too serious — as in, taking a girl to seriously — for my taste. Though I will drop some little nuggets of wisdom in mixed company. As in, I’ll never talk about it matter-of-factly, but I’ll preface it with “You know, I was reading Mainstream Media Source X and it said…”
But there are some cultures where you can openly tell women you’re on a first date with that you’d never date a feminist.
If more alphas in the west did that, more western women would be openly agreeing that feminism is bunk.
It’s a shit test to suggest that the topic should remain taboo (in order for the man to get laid) and western men are failing this test.
Anonymous–
I’m curious as to how old you are and how did you meet this girl? Also, do you live in a small town or a large city? I’m curious as to how you did it.
Small town, mutual friends where we were twice introduced by different friends, making it pre-selection overkill. Only a sense of entitlement can help a guy get a girl less than half his age. If a woman directly tells a guy he’s too old, he often has no choice but to do this, but more tact is advised. In this case, she wasn’t saying that, so this particular interaction wasn’t necessary.
(excuse the different avatar)
I think the excessive exaggeration is as bad as anything. Sorry pal, as long as they aren’t obese, most women around the age of 22 have no problem getting a guy under 30.
But relatively few aren’t obese at 22.
What no one mentions is that the Wall is contingent upon class. Here’s what I found.
Most SWPL women keep themselves in reasonably decent shape and can stay attractive past 30. (It’s often their minds that are the problem, but this is another topic…)
Most of the population of the US isn’t SWPL, it’s prole. And prole women, who often procreate young, do in fact hit the wall early. So the “Anonymous” of this post have been dealing with a prole chick who has seen her sisters and neighbors decent into haggard, bloated pigs by the time they’re 25.
For the lower classes this is the way it goes — I’ve seen in personally. In fact, it’s so bad that I had to de-friend a Facebook friend of mine who was totally hot at 18 but became so grossly obese, tattooed and pierced by 25 she ended up looking like a freak of nature (the borderline retarded husband didn’t help matters either).
Totally accurate. Social class needs to be discussed more here.
Nice post.
There is regionalism at play as well. Even upper class women in the wrong parts of the country can blow up after their early-20s. Basically, large cities and the West Coast, generally, are thinner.
Another PROTIP: Never tell a girl “no other man will want you”. Even if this wasn’t the direction of the subject in this post, every girl who is over the age of 16 equates this to a shit test that men use to devalue them. It only works on women once, unfortunately. After that it is seen as a sign of desperation, a final attempt to get her attention by saying that you are the only guy for her.
Jane Austen propagated this meme for english speaking countries 200 years ago. Remember when she had Elizabeth Bennett reject the proposal of a socially awkward and boorish preacher cousin who then looked surprised and told her that she couldn’t be serious because she obviously wouldn’t be getting another chance like that?
She made it clear in her fictional story that this attitude of his was not only totally ineffective against Elizabeth, but it raised his boorishness beyond what it already was.
But, looking back at that prototypical chick lit, one has to consider the source.
Austen was to die a spinster at 39. She wrote about her own experiences except her characters always got the best men in the end while they always slipped out of her grasp in real life (she was probably a 7 at her prime). There were probably some real life decent guys who proposed to her when she was young, but she was too busy pining for the real life Darcy, an Irish politician’s son who had rejected her and even stated late in his life that she had been a wallflower even in her teens. He said in an interview in the latter half of that century that he didn’t regret rejecting the young woman who later became a famous author, an admission in the 1800′s that a woman’s career success was, then as now, not a factor in her attractiveness to men.
Austen was the proto-feminist.
In one of her books, written in her 30′s, this famous female author had a woman turning 30 who had rejected a man more than 10 years before. The man had become richer and better looking now while she had become a wallflower in comparison with the new generation of young adults. The novel ended with a most improbable decision by the man that he still wanted her for his bride, despite her having dumped him when she was in her prime, and that he thought the younger prettier women were silly fools. For instance, he rejected one hot girl because she sprained her ankle trying to get his attention, as if men in real life would reject a girl for that. The man turned out to be politically correct to aging women and they lived happily ever after.
This was chick lit propaganda. But it became the bedrock of english lit and the culture.
I think a lot of western PUAs have to counter the effects of such propaganda.
I gotta disagree here. “No other man will ever want you.” My dad said that to my mom decades ago and it still fucks with my mom’s head to this day. Obviously every circumstance is different, but that line is devastating to chicks with low self-esteem.
A better variation on this is to be positive, but plant seeds of insecurity. Like this:
“Well, I’m sure a lot of other guys want you.” (Pause.) “But you know, one thing I find is that there are so many creeps out there. I mean, even for guys when it comes to women. You never know what the eff is up with people! Oh well, good luck!”
I dropped evo-psych theory on a couple girls one night and I was met with anything but blanks stares…
I was at a combination hip-hop/country club in the South with a couple colleagues. I was prowling solo and had gotten a couple numbers and a potential lay for that night, so I decided to check up on my friends.
I went outside to the patio/smoking area and found my friends chatting up three girls (white, early twenties, frumpy, unwarranted egos). I had a hunch they were from D.C. (two of them were). One of my buddies loudly mentioned that one of the girls, a frumpy ginger, worked at Booz Allen Hamiltom – my friend knew I had received an employment offer from the company a couple years ago – to establish some commonality and get a conversation going since the ginger was being ignored by my friends and no one else was hitting on her.
So I did my friend a solid and said to Gingerfrump, “Oh, that’s cool. Come over here so I can hear you.” Bitch then cocked off with, “Uh-uh, if YOU wanna talk to ME you should come over HERE.” I was reluctant going into the situation, but at that moment I realized I was dealing with a joyless feminist. No doubt she was in a bad mood after a week of banging her head against the “glass ceiling.”
All I had the patience to muster was “Alright, that’s it. I’m done,” and I went back into the club to find the 20-year-old I was rubbing on earlier. Some time passed and I went back outside to find my friends still smoking and talking to the loser chicks. Gingerfrump’s friend, a plain jane blonde, hit me up with every D.C. chick’s favorite question, and from there it got interesting.
Plain Jane: What do you do?
Me: That’s a boring question.
PJ: [Gasp] I’m just asking what you do?
Me: No you’re not. You’re trying to assess my status and determine my income and social circle. You don’t even know my name and you want to know what I do? You just want to know what’s germane to you. That’s like me asking how many guys you’ve been with or if you’ve ever had an abortion so I can decide if you’re worth getting to know.
It continued along these lines. I explained that we’re in a meat market and everyone is judging and assessing everyone else. Plain Jane protested, “But we’re not here to meet guys; we’re just here to hang out.”
To which I replied, “If that were true, you would be at one of your houses paying a fraction of the price for drinks and listening to music of your exact liking. You’re here to see, be seen, and meet people, especially guys.” I continued taking them to school using evo-psych theory to explain attraction and how it relates to the dating/bar scene. I saw that I was wining Plain Jane over, albeit very reluctantly.
At this point Gingerfrump, who was being ignored by man and women alike, chimed in by declaring that I’m wrong and am obviously uneducated and must have had my heart broken.
I continued dropping knowledge, now directed at Gingerfrump, and noticed I had the full attention of everyone around me. The guys were looking back and forth at each other grimacing, while the girls listened with open mouths. Gingerfrump continued with her lies, feminist doctrine, and human nature denial, but I held fast to the side of truth. Her ripostes were cut down by my logic. I gave up a tiny bit of ground by agreeing with her that she might not be interested in male attention since her clothes were unstylish and her hair was dull and unkempt. That prompted her to call me an asshole, to which I replied, “Let’s refuse from using ad homonyms. You wouldn’t like it if I called you a bitter cunt, would you?”
That was the knock out blow. Tears welled up in her eyes and she scurried off to the back of the club (presumably to the bathroom) where the mean man couldn’t embarrass and hurt her feelings any more. To my dismay, her friends hung out with my group a while longer. One of them, the best looking of the three, even gave her phone number to one of my friends.
I dropped evo-pysch theory not to elicit tinges, but to ruin a bitch’s night. It proved quite effective.
“I dropped evo-pysch theory not to elicit tinges, but to ruin a bitch’s night.”
All of that just to make someone that you’re not even attracted to feel bad about herself? God damn, you sound bitter.
sometimes it’s worth the effort to put the smackdown on entitled bitches. note that he originally ignored her, but she later inserted herself into the conversation thus pointing the laser designator at herself.
making her feel bad? this is often the first step towards positive change. he did her a favor by pointing out the truth.
Also, CH off his game if he thinks this is effective:
“All I ever wanted with you was to fool around a little like we did (she and her friends had hung around at my place and we sometimes made out) but not have sex because you’re not my type for that.”
This is needy, pathetic begging, esp. coming from an older man to a younger woman. And who uses terms like “fool around a little”? Plus, his assertion that he’s not interested in sex is non-believable and betaesque.
Ugh. For your own sake, do not try this at home.
Don’t assume English was being used. And the context of the above was that she was hurt, wanted to be friends again and there were mutual friends who all hung out with each other, making it a lot less likely that she’d shut off all contact.
Depending on a man’s overall credibility to a woman, if he tells her she’s not hot enough for intercourse but OK for hand jobs, that’s a neg that can be believed. I’m wondering if Binky is a female who thinks all men want intercourse with her.
If home is a feminist country, do not try this at home. Although I wouldn’t hesitate to tell an entitled western 7 what her place is, depending on circumstances and how hot her friends were.
She was hurt? Why should you care?
Because she wanted to come back over and cook and clean and get things back to how they used to be, with her friends who were still over at my place several times a week. I briefly took the time to be magnanimous and end the short cold war. Vulnerability game works. There’s a post on that. It requires that she perceives you as high status otherwise of course.
Are you sure you’re not a bot?
“We’d be together if you weren’t my mom’s age”.
I had texted back “Excuse me but, In two years, no guy under 30 will want you and by age 25, no alpha male under 40 will want you”.
She responded “WTF?!! In two years every man on Earth will still want me”
There is no question for me that this story is bogus.
[heartiste: that’s my take as well. but it provided a convenient springboard to lecture on the wrongheadedness of sounding like a nerd in front of women.]
That response rang false to me as well. I suspect the letter writer is someone who is very inexperienced with women, and wants to get feedback on his hypothetical game.
No, Heartiste, you’re incorrect this time on both counts although I’ll explain below how I agree with you that this is not something for beginners to try at home, especially in the US, Canada or Britain. (sorry for the different avatar today).
This is a minor event that really happened but not in English. She’s not high on the list of the women I’m dating so none of this was any big risk. But you’d consider her a 9 for the next year before she becomes an 8 and then a 7 the year after that.
Do they have debating sites where we could speak through avatars in real time on this? You should add that to your site because real time discussion can blow away some of the off-base assumptions you often make on various subjects.
Such as the crazy assumption that this was a “hitting on” event that would cause someone, presumably at a bar, to have her eyes glaze over and “move on to someone more fun”. Nobody ever said this was a subject for pick up opens or even the comfort stage.
The stated reality was that she was part of a group of friends that had included me and made me the venue host, which is a good post to have because it provides the most power. It’s been like the film “Metropolitan” except I have a strict rule that no other males will be allowed in the group.
The girls already know about evo psych because the local culture has no feminism. They think the whole subject is cool.
Remember, these are 18 year olds who have never heard about “women’s studies courses” or known any American or British women.
The topic itself isn’t nerdy to non-feminists. It’s up to the man to be a nerd or not on any particular subject.
In fact, where Yareally (unlike you so far) accepted the idea, above, that it’s only in the feminist regions of the world that women are likely to hate a man for speaking the truth, I’d disagree with even that. I believe I could tactfully discuss the truth with hot girls in the USA who are under 21 (older women would get too bitter about the topic).
I’ll agree with you that you have to know what you’re doing. I didn’t call it “nuclear negging” for nothing. Nuclear implies that you can blow up everything, including yourself with this tactic. Yes, that has happened a few times, almost always with someone exposed to western feminism however.
Let’s roll some of that bean footage:
You are as likely to be perceived by a woman as spiteful and vengeful as you are to be perceived insightful and jerkishly aloof.
No argument there. Because you were also saying “You are likely to be perceived as insightful and jerkishly aloof as you are to be perceived spiteful and vengeful”.
It depends on your frame, status and, of course, it would help to have already gotten into a relationship where you’d been kissing her.
broadly applied, most men will experience negative blowback going his route.
If men recaptured the US media and there was a campaign to get American males to behave more like alphas do in other cultures, then American women would have no choice but to accept the idea that all the local alphas will remind them of their SMV status if they, the women, get out of line.
Where matriarchal social shaming on this score doesn’t work, men would have more leeway to tell the truth, and the results would be positive. I know this first hand. The world is large enough that feminism hasn’t conquered everywhere.
Unless your frame is immovable granite and your delivery enticingly entitled,
No disagreement here.
and the girl you are hitting on is
Who said anything about using evo psych for pick up?
deemed sufficiently open-minded
This is a non-sequitur because an open minded girl would mostly already know about evo psych and wouldn’t need to be reminded of it.
a didactic exposition on male-female sexual psychology and evo-psych principles is liable to leave women cold.
Well if you want to use those big words, of course you’d come across as a nerd.
But if you use terminology she understands and it’s the same stuff her parents and grandparents have been telling her, you’ll be respected for reminding her of it.
You live in a culture, Heartiste, where the parents and grandparents of hot girls refuse to tell them the simple facts of life.
They aren’t saying “You need to be married by age 22″.
They are saying the opposite.
That’s what causes the disconnect with logic. It isn’t necessarily inherent in the female brain to be totally disconnected with reality.
Of course, we’re talking apples and oranges considering the mess of a culture you choose to live in.
“But you’d consider her a 9 for the next year before she becomes an 8 and then a 7 the year after that.”
This isn’t how women age. Once she realizes the world doesn’t end after 21 and she can still get quality men to commit to her probably well into her mid-20s, you’re out of the game with her.
The sooner she realizes this, the better (for her). This is why men prey on naive girls.
What you just said is so not true for the majority of women, Minty. By the way, I agree with you that it was inappropriate for that guy to insult a woman deeply because she asked him what his job was.
I’d agree that the women to have babies with are the ones who have proven they can make it into their late twenties looking great. This helps a man ensure that his daughters will not hit the wall too soon later on. But for men who live where women are normally a lot hotter than American women generally are, they see a drop off in looks often by age 20. The men get spoiled, especially when there’s a high female to male ratio of say, 1.2 to 1.0. And the frame of a man who sees that drop off causes him to have an entitlement that the target women find attractive. CH wouldn’t argue that effect.
I should do an update because the girl gang from the subject of this post has just been over for an impromptu “going to college” party for one of them. The one being honored lit up a cigarette half an hour ago and I said quite seriously that she’s going to have to quit because I care about her too much to see her start to age too soon. All the girls, all 18, agreed that cigarette smoke quickly ages young women.
That was the perfect segway. I then said “There’s an Internet argument going on in America now about whether American men should ever tell a girl that she might become less attractive because of age and over a short period of time like 2 to 5 years from where you girls are now. The majority seem to be afraid that, by discussing the subject, the girls will want to cut off all contact and friendship with such honest men and no longer provide sex.”
You know what the first words I heard back were? CH are you reading?
The hottest girl in the room said “So the majority of American men are apparently cowards”.
I was vindicated in my contention that CH has made a mountain out of a molehill by claiming there’s all that much danger in speaking the truth, as long as one maintains frame and doesn’t come across as bitter, and as long as one doesn’t deal with any woman who was raised with feminism, in which case all bets are off.
On your other point, Minty, I would fervently wish that these girls will stay attractive forever. They are all great friends.
There is no dynamic where I have one of them hypnotized into thinking she’s ugly and that she’ll wake up at 21 and dump me when she realized I “lied”. That’s a bizarre frame that seems to fit some kind of Lifetime Channel storyline back in the States. This isn’t exactly “The Handmaiden’s Tale”.
And I’ve stated that the particular nuclear neg this post is about was not necessary for me to make. My main point now is that it was never much of a big deal and certainly didn’t hurt me with her for more than a week.
“No question”? What’s so categorically impossible about the exchange, Sherlock?
It’s good to have finely honed troll detection and nobody wants to be played for a dupe, but sometimes you can be too suspicious and circumspect. Especially since the emailer has corroborated his story in the comments above.
Most important, if he is making it up whole cloth, who cares? Fiction and exaggeration is not a high-level skill on the internet. As CH says, what matters is the principle, and the principle rings true, regardless of false sounding details.
Anonymous’ recollection of an unremarkable text conversation is very different from a story that not only sounds fishy, but one from a storyteller with a history of lying, a tendency to self-aggrandize, or a motive to bullshit. Despite the “Anonymous” moniker, I don’t see any of those three factors pertaining. It’s not like he’s bragging about a four-way with the actresses from Pretty Little Liars.
Matt
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19180983
Beta males end up with fat women…
Look at the Daily Mail’s obviously female readers who cannot stand the truth:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2185510/Newspaper-columnist-provokes-worldwide-outrage-saying-Olympic-Games-destroying-female-figure.html
Worldwide outrage or just feminist outrage?
Look at the hundreds and hundreds of thumbs up for comments made by feminist-trained English readers (Male or Female, Right Wing or Left Wing doesn’t matter in the west) that try to shame the Turkish male journalist for telling the truth.
This is not off topic.
The larger question behind the above CH post is just how much men in the west are even allowed to THINK the truth, much less say it in front of a hot girl trained by “The Sisterhood”.
I wouldn’t go near a woman who would think like those shaming sisters in the comment sections of the Daily Mail article. Of course I should be able to casually say to a woman on a first date that many of the Olympian women look like men. To a non-feminist, that would be taken as a matter of fact statement, not something to judge the man on in terms of whether to reward him with sex for being pc.
“We’d be together if you weren’t my mom’s age”
Correct answer: “No we wouldn’t.”
This is the one I like best here.
(Which is not to say that it would work best.)
Another that comes to mind:
But we wouldn’t be together if YOU were your mother’s age.
“We’d be together if you weren’t my mom’s age”
Me: “I’m glad you said that…”
Her: Why? What ??
Me: Nothing…
I’ve used the “I’m glad you said that…” line several times and it works very well.
As for explaining Evo Psych to a girl….no one wants to know how the sausage was made…and girls won’t get it anyway.
I have however described the 3 elements of attraction to girls starting with:
“There are three elements of attraction do you know what they are?”
Her: looks, smart
Me: No, are you really a girl?
Her: come on blah blah blah blah
Me: ok, guess
etc etc etc proceed.
It’s a way of DHVing a girl into believing you understand women, it builds instant rapport.
Telling a girl one one day she’ll hit a wall…is frankly lame.
A girl I was banging got all weird with me saying she saw me with someone else or saw my online ad or something.
I could have answered with some cocky funny thing. I just chose to ignore it and move on.
Vids of interest:
Russian seduction school – for women:
Hitting the wall at 34 in Shangahi
Omega Pakistani’s desparate anti-game in action
Heartiste, and others, do you really believe women are most attractive at 18? I’m 22 and have dated more quality men than I could have had a chance with at 18. I feel way more attractive. I have also asked my male friends all of whom said they found women in early- mid twenties most attractive.
These are good looking men not necessarily betas and not saying this to get in my pants. we are actually friends. I just dont understand :/ or it doesn’t apply in this case.
The only thing worse than a nerd is a mean nerd. This letter writer does not have the social capital to be this much of a jerk.
As much as I massively respect CH and his inestimable contribution to the manosphere over the years, this post is moronic. The anonymous reader comes across as a retarded idiot who has just read “the game” and is now spraying his half understood game ammunition everywhere indiscriminately.
[heartiste: did you miss the part of the post where i said the emailer’s evo-psych “game” was horrible and bad advice for men?]
Talking evo psych and the wall to an 18 year old is simply mentally retarded and proves that children given dynamite will inevitably blow themselved up. An 18 year old can’t look beyond what party shes going to this weekend, let alone extrapolate to the decline in her attraction in 12+ years time.
A week back I sent CH a juicy personal case study on successfully seducing a 9 (with corroborating photos I might add) with an indominable alpha frame and then dropping the ball by actually helping her out with several problems (still retaining an alpha frame) and the resultant enormous sea change in her attitude towards me to my detriment. Now *thats* an interesting case study of the post feminist beautiful female and how to handle her.
[send it again.]
Your mistake, Alex, is in holding the frame that an 18 year old has 12 years.
She has 2 to 7 depending on her class.
And Heartiste has no experience outside the feminist world.
By the way, Heartiste, I didn’t email you and I didn’t describe “game” in that comment on your neg post a few weeks back so much as the use of a heavy weapon that, in this case, wasn’t necessary, but which works when girls are not trained by the kind of parents who tell them “You have your whole life ahead of you and you should have a career and get married in your late twenties”.
This isn’t a big issue and nothing to “argue” about. You obviously have to recognize that there is a cultural variance here. But, with the right frame, a man can tell any 18 year old anywhere what the wall is and that it comes sooner than many women expect. It doesn’t have to be done as a neg. It’s certainly not a “nerdy” topic.
Your blog would be nerdy if that were true.
And don’t try to say that the blog and interactions with women are two different things, as if that’s an argument. Of course there is a difference in tone. But male-female relations is a hot topic with women. If it’s a given with you that you won’t date feminists (in the USA you can choose to date exchange students), then there’s no reason why you can’t hold an alpha frame and discuss the topic with the truth tactfully embedded. Obviously, feminists will never accept a man going off the reservation on the issue of the truth.
You’ve dated women who knew you were writing this blog.
CH – will do, I am assuming the email is [email protected] as usual.
This is either a troll job or some of the worst application of Heartiste’s lessons ever.
Pushing 50 and having a target age group of 18-25, I run into this type of push back all the time. The key is not to worry too much about it. Often the resistance comes not from the specific target, but her peers who more often than not are jealous. More than once I’ve told my target that if she wasn’t comfortable, it was no big deal since it has to work for both of us. Then after ending things with her, I’ve ended up with one of her “friends” – almost always the one who was the biggest critic… Hey – I admire a woman who knows what she wants and goes after it – especially when it’s me she’s going after…
Now to be fair in my spare time I direct and produce musicals – and other performances in the community theatre – so I have a LOT of young women available. I have a new batch every couple of months when I have open auditions. As a result I don’t stress when one girl gets wonky. Yes, I know “man in position of power” – yada, yada, but the girls are always cast long before I get involved with them, and they are precluded from any productions while we are seeing each other – that nips such talk in the bud… Although, I don’t broadcast that fact – I’m not going to tell that gorgeous young thing that spending the week in my bed won’t help her get cast… Who am I to destroy her dreams?
So doing that in addition to my real businesses – which do not have a lot of interactions with young women – makes for a well rounded life.
Thinking overnight about this, I’d have to say that the blogger wrote a fair post but later, in the comment section, tried too hard to suck up to those who don’t like the idea of even an occasional nuclear neg upsetting the womenfolk (it’s an excuse to claim other reasons for disliking the idea of occasionally telling the truth to an occasional woman). That’s following the feminist imperative like the PUA sphere used to do in the past.
Yeahreally put it best in a comment above that feminists control women’s minds too much in the US for nuclear negging to work well there. Meanwhile, it’s shameful that there are aspies who think I applied the blogger’s “lessons” wrong in that unremarkable and entirely true little exchange. Some of us are here, not to beg for advice, but to see that he doesn’t mistake the feminist American way of thinking for the way that women are naturally born to think.
Remember, I wrote no letter asking for advice on this topic. I was making an off-hand matter of fact remark. I didn’t set out to be a contrarian.
I date women that age all the time and I only have to nuclear neg a small fraction of them.
Also, note the older female commenter who remarked that I supposedly have no social capital and don’t know what I’m doing with women because there’s nothing worse than a “mean jerk”. That right there should be your first clue that maybe the blogger is holding onto a feminist-approved meme that he shouldn’t be holding onto. Feminists don’t want men to spread the truth 1 on 1, to be “mean jerks”.
My being a jerk (about evo psych) has, in some instances, gotten me some of the best looking women in the world.
As stated above, the spinster Jane Austen started the meme that men are jerks who imply to a woman that she may be abusing a temporary power over men and won’t be getting all that many future opportunities.
Feminists would be overjoyed to see the blogger’s conclusion that it’s supposedly wrong to advise a woman about even the existence of the wall.
Now the biggest problem with the blogger on this post is that he’s saying that logic is not a valuable instrument in the tool-box of seduction, and saying that his entire repertoire of logic can’t be used, even in part, as subject matter to seduce women (the feminists will love his desire to keep the nuclear weapons in the silos where they can’t hurt anybody).
Now it’s true that you don’t have to use logic to seduce women.
But it can help. It’s retarded to take the manosphere meme too seriously that women don’t date logically. They can and do, often enough.
Ironically, this is where I’d agree with the feminists and gladly debate the blogger with them (but they would hate my examples of what logic can be applied).
Regarding nuclear negs, the one discussed in this post was not necessary. The girl was and is my friend. She wasn’t rejecting me sexually or otherwise.
Such negs should only be used if a man is being rejected and shut down for further communication entirely and only because of his age.
We’re not talking about scenarios in which a man is being rejected in anyway for being socially awkward. We’re talking scenarios in which the girl admits the only reason is because of his age. In such a situation, he can either walk away or he can use logic to reverse the situation.
Now being glib or laconic would not be an option in such a scenario, two of which I will describe below. He’s being shut down. She’s about to walk away or hang up the phone, again, only because of his age and for no other reason.
Doc just made a politically correct statement that he has plenty of opportunities so he doesn’t mind when he gets rejected for that reason. But for those men out there who want to have an instrument/tool that they can use to reverse an imminent rejection from a specific 10, take my advice.
If you do it right, you may have a 50:50 chance of reversing an otherwise guaranteed rejection.
Arguing evo psych as a Hail Mary Play didn’t work in one instance but worked well in another. To be credible to the naive people who don’t think this stuff can even happen in the real world, I’ll explain the failure first.
In the first instance, I did not hold frame. When a 10 I had opened in street game and asked to see again told me I looked like her father, I looked lost and said “I just didn’t shave this morning and need to work out”, which was true. It was the one day of the year I went outside without shaving and I look 10 years older if I don’t shave. I had no pre-selection and she didn’t really listen when I tried to say she wouldn’t look the same a year from now. I hesitated, did not even get the point across enough for her to be disdainful of it and, from the earlier part of my discussion with her, I knew that she wasn’t smart at all. She was just beautiful and cruel enough not to want to even know someone because of his age. She walked away. So much for a failed attempt at a nuclear neg.
The other time was far different. This time a married male friend told me he knew of someone about to turn 18 who was what I would call a 10. He got her on his phone and started to talk about me but was shut down fast. He then said “Oh” and asked her about her family to wind down the failed conversation.
I grabbed the phone and introduced myself. When I asked her why his offer to introduce us was turned down so fast she asked in a cold and hostile voice “How old are you”. She was taking hold of the frame and 99.9% of men would let her keep that frame and lose. I chose not to lose.
In this case my confidence and frame were like granite. Things fit the above description
I explained as tactfully as possible that however attractive she thought she was now, she wouldn’t be two years from now. In this case, she understood what I said and argued with me for 10 minutes, using logic.
She was a smart one. The logic she used included “But you will get older as well, so I should do the same thing you’re thinking by marrying a man my age”.
This was good because she was using, drum roll please, LOGIC.
When you can get a girl to argue with you logically on this issue, you are half way there, as long as she hasn’t learned from feminists that she is supposed to watch out for men who do this and think of them as losers. Remember, the woman this didn’t work on, hadn’t understood what I was trying to say.
Anyway, it wasn’t too hard to convince her that the only logical thing for her to do was to date and maybe marry someone like me.
After 20 minutes of talk on the phone, she agreed to at least meet me in person.
We had a three month relationship. The argument had paid off in spades.
She gained some weight during that time and then she saw me on a date with someone else. My prediction in the nuclear neg had come true unfortunately and at a much faster pace than I had described to her.
I’ve noted before that this probably works only on women whose relatives have already told her that she doesn’t have much time to play the field and sleep around.
This probably won’t work on those destined to be American SWPLs but it could work if they haven’t taken a womyn’s studies course yet.
That makes it your own fault if you are over 30 and want the hottest girls but live among the American SWPLs.
Date the exchange students if that’s what it takes.
Here’s Nietzsche on the subject on women vs. truth: “But [woman] does not *want* truth: what does woman care for truth! Woman finds nothing more alien, more repulsive, more hostile than truth, – her greatest art is lying, what matters most to her is appearance and beauty.” It’s so awesome and true that I’d like to quote the entire section 231 of “Beyond Good and Evil”, but I’ll leave it for you to read. By the way, Nietzsche does not hate women. A common misunderstanding.
PUA ideology used to be solidly feminist and vestiges of this are still around, ironically sometimes on the very blog that’s been best at merging the fragmented anti-feminist scene with the old pro-feminist PUA scene.
The “don’t confront women for bad behavior” meme is still big. It suspiciously advocates exactly what feminists want, such as “let them flake; just move on”, but men are supposed to buy a different reason for being good boys, such as “they’ll think you’re a loser if you confront them” which differs from the feminist refrain “we’ll think you’re a loser if you confront us”.
But you actually can disqualify feminists to their faces and the best looking ones will like you better for it. You don’t have to talk about any wall, but if they talk about men, any men, getting too old for them, note that they are the ones who brought that subject up. They just don’t use the word “wall” in their terminology. Think about it.
It’s your call. Just don’t be so afraid of American women’s reaction to little things like the truth.
And don’t conduct social shaming on behalf of them, like you have Stockholm Syndrome or something. This topic can be discussed without ad hominem attacks between men.
My all-time “Nuclear-Neg” I dropped on a girl (who was an 8.3), in the midst of heavy flirting, was telling her that SHE was out of MY league. The look of horror and dismay on her face was simply priceless. Not long after this, I started receiving flurries of text messages and panty shots to my email account from her…